Jump to content

      



























Photo

[Metchosin/Beecher Bay FN] Spirit Bay | Mixed-use | Approved


  • Please log in to reply
234 replies to this topic

#161 James Bay walker

James Bay walker

    CustomUserTitle

  • Member
  • 638 posts
  • LocationJames Bay

Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:19 PM

It makes sense now why Ralmax started a new company to limit its liability

Are not the directors liable/responsible for their earlier actions taken during their directorship period? Simply transferring assets and goodwill to a newly formed company of a different name does not let them just abandon liabilities (under the more stringent directorship liability legislation I'd of thought).

  • D ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION

Directors may be held liable for environmental offences, for causing or permitting environmental damage or for environmental offences committed by the companies they serve.

http://www.doingbusi...ntroduction-115

jbw

editted to add: barges can carry quite a lot, so can be an attractive alternative at times (= 20 old sized barges or 10 new sized barges in this instance, re. the 20,000 cubic meter removal recommendation)

What is the size of a barge?
The standard barge is 195 feet long, 35 feet wide, and can be used to a 9-foot draft. Its capacity is 1500 tons. Some of the newer barges today are 290 feet by 50 feet, double the capacity of earlier barges.

http://www.caria.org...s_tugboats.html

#162 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,184 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:35 PM

There is no need to transport the soil to the mainland, there are several disposal sites in and around the CRD. You would have to get the barges close to shore even if you loaded via conveyors which would beat the barge to hell with the surf and up and down of the tides

Ralmax is now Ralmax Contracting Ltd. instead of Ralmax Developments Ltd. now

The trucks with the signs on them are SIA (South Island Aggregates). The have a gravel pit near the South Shawnigan turn off and they also haul soil from town back and dump it there


Thanks for clarifying :)

Are not the directors liable/responsible for their earlier actions taken during their directorship period? Simply transferring assets and goodwill to a newly formed company of a different name does not let them just abandon liabilities (under the more stringent directorship liability legislation I'd of thought).

The directors are held to account but a new company is a separate corporate entity and not responsible or liable for activities of another company even if the same board manages them. At least that's how I understand it.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#163 the26er

the26er
  • Member
  • 22 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:04 PM

well, I'll give them this having driven by there today...they finally cleared up their own personal garbage dump to the east of the site. Obviously the polically correct thing to do if trying to draw in big money as that was the biggest eyesore in the area. So can they now convince the 'community' to clean up their own properties?

I guess the question is, where are they dumping now? I assume alpine or whoever doesn't go out that far and I doubt they will have the gumption to go to the main landfill all the time. Is there a new site off the main road?

#164 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:14 PM

Thanks for clarifying :)

The directors are held to account but a new company is a separate corporate entity and not responsible or liable for activities of another company even if the same board manages them. At least that's how I understand it.


That is only true if the directors personally authorized the corporation to do that. In a company large enough like Ralmax the directors could say they had no knowledge and that lower management made the decision without consulting the directors. Directors are not personally responsible if say two employees on their own decide to dump a barrel of oil down a storm drain

#165 James Bay walker

James Bay walker

    CustomUserTitle

  • Member
  • 638 posts
  • LocationJames Bay

Posted 14 October 2013 - 06:33 PM

That is only true if the directors personally authorized the corporation to do that. In a company large enough like Ralmax the directors could say they had no knowledge and that lower management made the decision without consulting the directors. Directors are not personally responsible if say two employees on their own decide to dump a barrel of oil down a storm drain

One barrel of oil is one thing, 20,000 cubic meters (300 dump trucks' worth?) of contaminated soil is quite another (imo).

jbw

#166 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,184 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:16 PM

That is only true if the directors personally authorized the corporation to do that. In a company large enough like Ralmax the directors could say they had no knowledge and that lower management made the decision without consulting the directors. Directors are not personally responsible if say two employees on their own decide to dump a barrel of oil down a storm drain


Do you think with such a large volume of contaminated soil they can claim ignorance? I mean this would be one of the largest operations they would have had in a given month, maybe even a quarter.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#167 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:18 PM

One barrel of oil is one thing, 20,000 cubic meters (300 dump trucks' worth?) of contaminated soil is quite another (imo).

jbw


to a judge its the same thing

Now the next question is when is the Beecher Bay indian band going to clean this mess up? The feds and provincial governments are saying its their responsibility. As a taxpayer I am glad to hear this

#168 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:22 PM

Do you think with such a large volume of contaminated soil they can claim ignorance? I mean this would be one of the largest operations they would have had in a given month, maybe even a quarter.


I'm not a lawyer, but I would say yes. How many truck loads do you think some of the larger excavation contractors in Victoria haul every month. It would be easy for Ralmax directors to say they didn't know anything about it. If it was me I would say "we haul 5000 loads a month, I have no knowledge as to where those 300 loads went nor am I involved in the day to day operations"

#169 Bingo

Bingo
  • Member
  • 16,666 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:37 PM

Does the reserve get drinking water from wells or domestic piped water from the Sooke reservoir? If its from a well you can bet all the water on the reserve is also contaminated now


Is it Quarantine Lake?
http://www.secretlak...uarantine-lake/

#170 phx

phx
  • Member
  • 1,856 posts

Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:26 PM

I believe this is the dump site:

clicky



#171 weirdie

weirdie
  • Member
  • 497 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:33 AM

I'm very interested to see how this turns out. With a community like Sooke/East Sooke, it's incredibly hard for any sort of gossip to stay secret. All one needs to do is go to A&W at 6am and talk to the old timers there for their morning coffee.

#172 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:23 AM

There are two lawsuits filed, the indian band and Darcy Arnet (the guy whose property abuts the native reserve) are both suing Ralmax separately. There could be other defendants, but I can't tell

#173 tony mancini

tony mancini
  • Member
  • 9 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:35 AM

A new Camp Ground, with services. Not Cheanuh.

http://www.beecherba...com/campground/

Now if only the natives could build there own cabins. To rent out to local fishermen. Who have been a supportive part of the band.

yea Russ will say, all toxins soil removed.lol, Still do not get why the crab look taste different. From Sooke Spit, Pedder Bay, compared to crab in Spirit Bay AKA Beecher Bay (Cheanuh Marina. So even if most of the soil did get cleaned up. How much toxins have dispersed into the marina? Of course no study on cancer. Just knowing the area for many yrs. I will not eat something. That does not look right to me.

Tony

#174 James Bay walker

James Bay walker

    CustomUserTitle

  • Member
  • 638 posts
  • LocationJames Bay

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:45 AM

That is only true if the directors personally authorized the corporation to do that. In a company large enough like Ralmax the directors could say they had no knowledge and that lower management made the decision without consulting the directors. Directors are not personally responsible if say two employees on their own decide to dump a barrel of oil down a storm drain

Another point of interest to a Judge would be: just who contaminated that soil in the first place? Was it Ralmax? Or did Ralmax get involved in moving someone else's contaminated soil?

If Ralmax contaminated the soil in the first place, the whole business might be seen as grossly 'self serving'. But the directors may still only be liable for cleanup costs and compensation for consequent damages (such as delays imposed on development aspirations) under a: 'month to month' operations were outside their sphere of awareness, legal theory.

A would be purchaser or tenant of a home on the site might not be satisfied with just an assurance by a tribal member or the solution earlier alluded to of 'paving it over' and instead I think they would reasonably want:

- this legal issue settled,
- the toxic soil removed, and most importantly:
- test results of the remaining soil and watershed eventually showing it is non-hazardous

before deciding on proceeding with a purchase or rental.

What sort of timeline's involved for that level of remediation? There'll be residues leached into nearby soil and the watershed I'd imagine, so it might take soil & watershed testing over a long period (years? decades?), before being able to reliably predict when that point will likely be reached.

jbw

#175 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 05:15 PM

Another point of interest to a Judge would be: just who contaminated that soil in the first place? Was it Ralmax? Or did Ralmax get involved in moving someone else's contaminated soil?

If Ralmax contaminated the soil in the first place, the whole business might be seen as grossly 'self serving'. But the directors may still only be liable for cleanup costs and compensation for consequent damages (such as delays imposed on development aspirations) under a: 'month to month' operations were outside their sphere of awareness, legal theory.


For that legal argument to be successful you would have to provide some evidence that the owner of the contaminated soil knew that it would be dumped at an illegal site.

As I understand it the contaminated soil officially came from City of Victoria land. Of course Ralmax is required to indemnify the City. Since Ralmax Developments is gone and the directors are not being sued, you wont get blood out of a stone.

I see that Spirit Bay has been silent on this issue, its time for them to provide comments and how they and their partners will deal with this issue

#176 wisevictoria

wisevictoria
  • Member
  • 119 posts
  • Location225 Dundas Street, Victoria, BC

Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:25 PM

Maybe some of the contaminated soil could be used to fill in the hole at Silkwind or Capital City Centre?

#177 James Bay walker

James Bay walker

    CustomUserTitle

  • Member
  • 638 posts
  • LocationJames Bay

Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

Land Owner Seeks
Compensation
Metchosin landowner Darcy Arnet’s
lawyer has put the Beecher Bay
Indian Band, Indian and Northern
Affairs Canada, the City of Victoria,
and Ralmax Development on notice
that Arnet is seeking compensation
after his property that was polluted
by contaminated soil dumped on
the neighbouring band reserve
land. Although Ralmax, with the
Beecher Bay Band’s co-operation,
recently completed cleanup and
containment work to guard against
re-contamination for the short-term,
no one is accepting responsibility for the site or offering compensation
to Arnet for his “out-of-pocket”
expenses. Ralmax, which had
a contract with the city for the
disposal of material, did the cleanup
on a without-prejudice basis and
Indian Affairs has “washed their
hands” of the issue saying it is the
band’s responsibility. [Nov. 30, 2007]

http://www.cornerpla...ia/mmSample.pdf

(sample only, subscribing costs ~$800/year)

Would be timely to see the link to the provincial report on recent site testing.

jbw


#178 larrobb

larrobb
  • Member
  • 120 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 09:53 AM

Developer Butterfield and Chief Chipps were on CFAX yesterday. listen to the half-hour podcast here:
http://www.cfax1070....er-18-2013-10am

the interview with them is after the 10:30 news.

#179 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,184 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 10:06 AM

I don't have time to listen to that right now, but can someone who has paraphrase what was on the CFAX interview?

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#180 Pioneer

Pioneer
  • Member
  • 5 posts

Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:06 PM

I'm very interested to see how this turns out. With a community like Sooke/East Sooke, it's incredibly hard for any sort of gossip to stay secret. All one needs to do is go to A&W at 6am and talk to the old timers there for their morning coffee.

yes this is true

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users