Jump to content

      



























Photo

High-capacity seaplane air shuttle - Sidney to YVR


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 02:26 AM

So Mike and I were talking about this on the weekend.

 

Particularly, we were both saying that we'd take the float planes more often between Victoria and Vancouver if the price was lower.  Right now it can be close to $400 return, but less if you find seat sales.

 

I think part of the problem is all the added time for taxiing in Victoria, plus of course we start in town, then circle around the water getting altitude, then finally heading up along the east coast of the Peninsula once we get height.  I think we waste a lot of time and geography there.

 

So I always thought that if we could find the shortest route between the two points, we could have a service that minimizes air-time, and if we could drive the price to around $50 or less each way, we'd have demand.  

 

At first, I thought Canoe Cove to DeltaPort would work, but #1 there are no facilities on either side there, and #2 I'm not even sure of any area around DeltaPort is suitable for sheltered landing.

 

So then I thought, OK, it's a just a tad bit longer, but we have Harbour Air facilities both at YVR (seaplane base), and at Pat Bay, west of the airport.

 

CzKYA-918.png

 

Sorry about all the extra lines, I'm lousy with google maps.

 

Anyway, right now, on the weekend (when they have more planes available) you can get a flight from Nanaimo to YVR for $53.  Ah ha, that's close to my target price!

 

My service would have higher demand, I envision one plane just going back and forth, back and forth.  A Twin-Otter carries 19, but I know they are more expensive to run, with two pilots.  But whatever, my demand is going to be high.  I'm almost sure at $39 or $49 this plane would be packed.

 

Now, some of you are going to look at that map and say "it's not all that much farther, both into the harbour on this side, and to go the extra mile to go to Coal Harbour on that side.  And that's waaaayyyy more convenient for where people want to be on each end".  First, honestly, it takes forever to taxi on this side, so it's not just the geography, it's the time to taxi out and into the harbour at 5 knots, it's a real-time user on a route that only takes 35 minutes.  And this service is not designed for the government worker and high-end business user that now takes the planes harbour to harbour.  This is for the crowd that does not want to take almost 2 hours when they walk on the ferries, or that don't need their car on either side, and like spending less than the car-and-driver ferry price to get over.

 

Let's face it, the vast majority of people that walk onto the ferry, either have a friend/family picking them up at the terminal, or park and ride.  Yes, some take transit, but not nearly most of them.  Hundreds walk off and only a fraction get on the bus.  My plan has also plenty of parking, short (pick-up, drop off) and long-term at each terminal.  The terminal at Pat Bay is a little sparse, but it's there now.  I flew out of it a few weeks back when Salt Spring Air was kind enough to give us a little tour.  And I've never been to YVR seaport, but it looks good, they have the Flying Beaver Restaurant there.

 

Also, landing at YVR is much cheaper than Coal Harbour, you don't have the new per-flight charge for their new fancy terminal on that side, and we are trying here to make the price as low as possible. 

 

YVR float plane base:

 

2EhkR-919.png

 

Pat Bay seaplane base:

 

NAaNP-920.png

 

What does everyone think?

 

Oh, Mike also thought there were larger planes available (Florida?), but I'm struggling to find a popular float plane much bigger than the Twin Otter, but I've asked a pilot friend to chime in here, he trains pilots on the Otter via a Viking Air contractor, he'll know if there are bigger planes in common use around the world.

 

 

EDIT:  Harbour Air now, 

 

Victoria Harbour to YVR:  $89 to $135 weekdays, $89-$102 weekends.

Victoria Harbour to Coal Harbour:  $129-$185 7 days a week

 

*  There are sometimes/often seat sales on the above.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#2 Holden West

Holden West

    Va va voom!

  • Member
  • 9,058 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:02 AM

I don't know, the Twin Otter combines relatively high capacity with a compact size, legendary reliability and safety, decent noise levels and of course it fits existing infrastructure. There are larger flying boats out there but you sacrifice the other benefits. Is Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose for sale?


"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#3 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:56 AM

Harbour-to-harbour cost me $65 the other day. That's cheap. I was pleased. I paid $50 for a harbour-to-harbour flight last year. I was smug as a bug in a rug about it (the lowest that I've ever paid in my life was $49 and that was back in 1996 or thereabouts). In my opinion a $50 harbour-to-harbour fare is effectively free. It's quick, ultra-convenient, and I never get tired of the scenery. When we're talking about starting (or landing) in Sidney we're adding a layer of inconvenience that merits a significant discount from my POV. I think I'd be pleased with a $50 fare from Sidney to downtown and smug as a bug in a rug with a $35 fare from Sidney to downtown.



#4 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,184 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:33 AM

Those discount fares are convenient for a chance flyer who will only fly if they come upon that discount. The vast majority of people who fly on Harbour Air pay the full fare or nearly the full fare and that's some serious money.

 

And when it comes to Helijet their fares are even higher.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#5 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:01 AM

I talked to my pilot friend.

 

To paraphrase, he thinks the total time in the air is not as big a factor as I might suggest, but agrees that the taxi is awful long in Victoria, but that time is not logged to the maintenance schedule as "air time" is.

 

He thinks that Harbour air the the model of the industry world-wide, and they are doing things 95% right now, and if anyone could find a way to do it better, they would.

 

On the aircraft front, he really thinks there is no other plane than the Otters that are ideal for this area.  ie. plenty of pilots trained to fly them, vs. bringing in some more exotic craft that would require more regulations etc. 


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#6 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:19 AM

Me confused. VHF says his service would be tailored for just plain folk (like aastra) but Mike seems to be saying it would be tailored for business/government users. Obviously the vast majority of just plain folk (like aastra) who fly harbour-to-harbour five or six times per year aren't going to be paying the full fare unless they absolutely cannot avoid doing it. I'm just checking my most recent flights stretching back to late 2011 now and I can see that I never paid the full price. My highest was $128 and my average for eleven harbour-to-harbour flights was just under $90 (which is about half of the regular fare for harbour-to-harbour service, or about the same as the regular fare for downtown Vic to Richmond). (Correction to an earlier post: the smug-as-a-bug fare from last year was $39, but the charge ended up being $50 after all of the BS had been piled on.)

 

In other words, a cheaper-but-less-convenient service in Sidney would need to be a good deal to pull just plain folk such as myself out there.

 

If VHF can knock the prices down by 15% by flying from Oak Bay to Kits Beach instead of from harbour to harbour I'd be all over that.


Edited by aastra, 08 January 2014 - 10:19 AM.


#7 lanforod

lanforod
  • Member
  • 11,241 posts
  • LocationSaanich

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:22 AM

They can't seem to get the price that low for airport to airport even, so I don't see the driver behind this. Needs to be more competition maybe.

 

How about building one of these for high capacity? :P http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dornier_Do_X



#8 Greg

Greg
  • Member
  • 3,362 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:26 AM

I fly Harbour Air a lot, and the whole point is to go from downtown to downtown for me.



#9 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:30 AM

My highest was $128 and my average for eleven harbour-to-harbour flights was just under $90 (which is about half of the regular fare for harbour-to-harbour service, or about the same as the regular fare for downtown Vic to Richmond). (Correction to an earlier post: the smug-as-a-bug fare from last year was $39, but the charge ended up being $50 after all of the BS had been piled on.)

 

In other words, a cheaper-but-less-convenient service in Sidney would need to be a good deal to pull just plain folk such as myself out there.

 

If VHF can knock the prices down by 15% by flying from Oak Bay to Kits Beach instead of from harbour to harbour I'd be all over that.

 

I want my service to be one price, all the time (or it can have weekend discounts/surcharges, however it works out), I don't want people to have to search for the discount fares like you might have the luxury of doing, Aastra.

 

Decide to go in the morning, book it online, no refunds, show up in the afternoon and board.  This is an air taxi designed for everyone, except the government workers who don't really care what the price is.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#10 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:31 AM

I fly Harbour Air a lot, and the whole point is to go from downtown to downtown for me.

 

Do you pay the bill?  I meann I think we can all liekly agree the service would be minimal or non-existent without government employees using it on our dime.  Same with Helijet.

 

Look at float plane service to Whistler, serving upscale tourists, it's a lean operation when you have no government workers onboard daily.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#11 Baro

Baro
  • Member
  • 4,317 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:48 AM

Seems pointless if not downtown to downtown and requires a long drive or transit.  If you drive you need a place to dump your car too.

 

I'd just love to see better transit from both sides of the ferries, maybe a little passenger only boat that's way faster.  An express bus from downtown with maybe only 1-2 other stops before hitting the ferry.  Same on the Vancouver side, an express bus to Bridgeport without a million silly stops along the way.  You can still run the slower buses but I guarantee if waiting at Tsawwassen was a bus that was going directly to the Bridgeport station with no stops along the way, that would be the one 99% of people would jump on.

 

And on the Victoria side, make sure there is ALWAYS an express bus waiting there, the "milk run" bus is possibly the most inefficient bus route I've ever seen.  It's like someone sat down and said "Let's try to design a route that makes no one want to take transit to or from the ferry!".


"beats greezy have baked donut-dough"

#12 aastra

aastra
  • Member
  • 20,650 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:15 AM

Decide to go in the morning, book it online, no refunds, show up in the afternoon and board.

 

Like BC Ferries?



#13 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:18 AM

Seems pointless if not downtown to downtown and requires a long drive or transit.  If you drive you need a place to dump your car too.

 

I'd just love to see better transit from both sides of the ferries, maybe a little passenger only boat that's way faster.  An express bus from downtown with maybe only 1-2 other stops before hitting the ferry.  Same on the Vancouver side, an express bus to Bridgeport without a million silly stops along the way.  You can still run the slower buses but I guarantee if waiting at Tsawwassen was a bus that was going directly to the Bridgeport station with no stops along the way, that would be the one 99% of people would jump on.

 

And on the Victoria side, make sure there is ALWAYS an express bus waiting there, the "milk run" bus is possibly the most inefficient bus route I've ever seen.  It's like someone sat down and said "Let's try to design a route that makes no one want to take transit to or from the ferry!".

A friend of mine kept raving about the Vancouver transit on the other side telling me it was just as fast or even faster getting downtown than driving by car.  I thought I'd try it one day and parked the car at Swartz Bay, walked on and took the city bus.  It was great, non stop express from the ferry to Canada line and then right downtown.  I compared the time and it was indeed faster plus I didn't have to find a place to park or pay for parking.  All in all for the day trip I saved around $125 plus I got some work done on the bus.  I'll also add I am not a big fan of transit, but I'm not a snob that I won't take it either

 

As for Harbour AIr, it is indeed set up for government workers, why they can't do video conferencing is beyond me, I do that a lot if I don't have to physically be there.  Some business people do use Harbour Air and I would be curious of the split between government and business

 

You have an interesting concept with Sidney area to Vancouver, but if that was to happen you have to give me an easy way to get to downtown Vancouver quickly.  Similar situation if I was from Vancouver, what do I do once I am in Sidney, how do I get downtown?  I don't think there is any express service on this side, but I could be wrong

 

I'm interested in this idea, but you have to balance out the cost savings over Harbour AIr with the added hassle and unless you were offering all inclusive shuttle buses with limited stops on both sides to downtown, it may not be worth it



#14 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:21 AM

Seems pointless if not downtown to downtown and requires a long drive or transit.  If you drive you need a place to dump your car too.

 

 

What's pointless about it?  It's a much, much, much faster version of the existing walk-on ferry.  Read my post, there is parking both sides. You just pay a premium fee for the speed.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#15 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:22 AM

Like BC Ferries?

 

Yes, but 4x faster, and more frequent too, in the off-season..


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#16 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:25 AM

 

You have an interesting concept with Sidney area to Vancouver, but if that was to happen you have to give me an easy way to get to downtown Vancouver quickly.  Similar situation if I was from Vancouver, what do I do once I am in Sidney, how do I get downtown?  I don't think there is any express service on this side, but I could be wrong

 

I'm interested in this idea, but you have to balance out the cost savings over Harbour AIr with the added hassle and unless you were offering all inclusive shuttle buses with limited stops on both sides to downtown, it may not be worth it

 

In Vancouver a shuttle take you to the Canada Line.  This side a little more difficult.  but look, even with express buses, most people would still get picked up by friends/family/business associates at the terminal, like they do now as they disembark the ferry.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#17 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:26 AM

You can still run the slower buses but I guarantee if waiting at Tsawwassen was a bus that was going directly to the Bridgeport station with no stops along the way, that would be the one 99% of people would jump on.

 

I still think at best 25% will jump the bus.  Most will be picked up or grab their parked car, as they do now.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#18 concorde

concorde
  • Banned
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:12 PM

You can still run the slower buses but I guarantee if waiting at Tsawwassen was a bus that was going directly to the Bridgeport station with no stops along the way, that would be the one 99% of people would jump on.

You mean like what there is now.  The express bus leaves as soon as the last person gets on.  I took the 7am ferry and the bus left at 8:47am.  It was my first time taking it and I would take it again without a second thought



#19 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 02:08 PM

If you book at least a day in advance, online, you can fly every day well into January for $129 (all taxes and fees in) from Victoria Harbour to downtown Vancouver, and $89 to YVR.  There is from one to four or five flights each day at this price.  And at YVR you get a free shuttle to the Canada Line. 

 

Also, kudos to Harbour air for making their website so simple to see all routes and times easy.

 

http://www.harbourai...utes-schedules/


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#20 Greg

Greg
  • Member
  • 3,362 posts

Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:37 PM

Do you pay the bill?  I meann I think we can all liekly agree the service would be minimal or non-existent without government employees using it on our dime.  Same with Helijet.

 

Look at float plane service to Whistler, serving upscale tourists, it's a lean operation when you have no government workers onboard daily.

I use it both personally and for work. I'm not a government employee. When I use it personally I am typically able to grab a (comparatively) inexpensive ticket online if I have any flexibility. When I take it for work it is because I need to make a day trip to Vancouver and this is really the only practical way to do so, if I need to have several hours in Vancouver. Besides the significant time savings, there is also real savings to not have a car, and avoiding the need to pay parking at the airport or at a Downtown Vancouver hotel offsets some of the cost as well.



You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users