819 replies to this topic

[Victoria Watcher]

it’s a driving hazard because it “goes nowhere” yet somehow cars get onto it “from somewhere”.

[aastra]

Exactly. Motorists were street-racing back and forth between Broughton and Pandora & mowing down those swarms of jaywalkers like it was a video game. Video games hadn't been invented yet, so where else could they get a thrill like that?

[Nparker]

Chief concern of police and traffic officials is the fact that Broad Street, particularly in the single block between Fort and View, is a happy hunting ground for jaywalkers

IIRC before the Bay Centre (aka the Victoria Eaton Centre) was built, the block of Broad Street between Fort and View was already a pedestrian only space (with an elevated walkway that connected the 2 Eaton's buildings), I don't actually remember a time when it was open to vehicular traffic. 

[Victoria Watcher]

Exactly. Motorists were street-racing back and forth between Broughton and Pandora & mowing down those swarms of jaywalkers like it was a video game. Video games hadn't been invented yet, so where else could they get a thrill like that?

slot car racing? i’m sure the jay-cee fair had it.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 18 July 2020 - 10:52 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

IIRC before the Bay Centre (aka the Victoria Eaton Centre) was built, the block of Broad Street between Fort and View was already a pedestrian only space (with an elevated walkway that connected the 2 Eaton's buildings), I don't actually remember a time when it was open to vehicular traffic.

two walkways. a tunnel too.

[aastra]

In 1963 Broad Street was still open to through traffic, no overhead connection between either side of the Eaton's complex. Also, methinks much of the traffic on Broad Street was probably headed to or from the Eaton's (Broughton Street) parkade, which was already in operation by this time. Suffice it to say, the city wanted people to be coming downtown, but it didn't want people to be coming downtown on the wrong streets.

 

Pic of the parkade under construction in 1960 from city of Victoria archives:

 

 

 

Pic of Broad Street from 1959 from city of Victoria archives:

 

 

 

Broad Street being closed for "experimental" mall in 1969 (still no overhead connection between either side of Eaton's):

 

 

 

Another pic of the "experimental" mall in 1969 from city of Victoria archives:

 

Edited by aastra, 18 July 2020 - 11:01 AM.

[aastra]

It's funny, the one thing Victoria can never be allowed to be... is itself.

 

 

Daily Colonist (Victoria Express)
March 21, 1974

NEW OVERHEAD WALKWAY, connecting Eaton's two stores over the Broad Street mall, is expected to be in operation in three weeks, along with a new awning. Store manager Reg Hind said the project cost about $60,000. The red awning and trees planted last fall by the city's parks department should combine to produce a cheery continental effect for mall users, Hind said.

 

*****

 

 

Daily Colonist
November 15, 1977

 

Buses, pedestrians only urged in Broad Street mall scheme

A proposal to convert a three-block section of Broad Street to a pedestrian-transit mall with no access to passenger vehicles will go before the Central Business Advisory Committee today.

The proposal calls for blocking Broad Street between city hall and the Eaton's mall to all private vehicles except trucks serving businesses along the street.

All bus routes would use the three-block section as a layover point. There would be bays for buses and shelters for passengers.

Sidewalks would be widened and get extensive mall treatment including the installation of planters, tables and benches and trees.

Traffic engineer Derek Wild said... buses would have to be pulled off Douglas Street because traffic was becoming too congested.

He said buses would still stop on Douglas, but they would lay over on Broad...

Ald. Robert Wright, chairman of the city's planning committee, said the proposal had all the potential of a "small Gas Town."

He said by moving the bus layover point to Broad, thousands of people would be channelled to that street, providing major market for businesses.

 

Gastown, Granville Island... Victoria should be more like Vancouver. And meanwhile, why does Victoria have so many uniquely Victorian things? Let's try to work a bit harder to erase those uniquely Victorian things, like Beacon Hill Park or the Northern Junk warehouses or the railing along Dallas Road...

Edited by aastra, 18 July 2020 - 02:12 PM.

[aastra]

Quotes from two different city aldermen, 1973 and 1977:

 

 

...the high density factor would create an undesirable environment for any resident in the downtown area.

 

 

...thousands of people would be channelled to that street, providing major market for businesses.

 

Ordinary people can be either wonderful or menacing depending on the issue that's being pushed or opposed.

[Nparker]

Another pic of the "experimental" mall in 1969 from city of Victoria archives:

 

It looks like people are going out of their way to avoid crossing into the pedestrian "mall". Of course this would be an animated space today since it never rains in Victoria anymore, especially from October-March.

[aastra]

Check it out. The new Broad Street mall was stirring up trouble right off the bat. Maybe there is some sort of tenuous relationship between activities & uses that are (or are not) allowed to happen downtown and activities & uses that are (or are not) allowed to happen elsewhere? Maybe the various parts of the city don't exist in perfect isolation from one another?

 

(Although I have to say, it rings a bit hollow to me that a new suburban shopping centre would complain about a longstanding downtown operation's unfair advantage because that longstanding downtown operation suddenly -- for the first time ever -- has a half-decently convenient place to unload their trucks).
 

 

Daily Colonist
March 17, 1971

Complaints About Eaton's Mall "Legitimate"

Victoria Mayor Courtney Haddock says the city may soon reach an agreement with the T. Eaton Company regarding a section of Broad Street used by the firm.

Complaints from Hillside Shopping centre merchants regarding the exclusive use of a parcel of public property by a private firm, the mayor said, were "Legitimate".

"They have a point, and I hope we can settle this matter soon, "Haddock said...

...he said that Eaton's "might be asked to lease or rent the property in question."

In a letter to council this week, R.I. Lawson, on behalf of the Hillside merchants, said the association wishes to protest Eaton's use of Broad Street between View and Fort.

"As taxpayers to the city of Victoria we respectfully point out that we see no reason why tax revenues to which we contribute are used to assist one of our major competitors and would further propose that the area in question be opened up to traffic and that its use as an unsightly truck loading area be discontinued," the letter stated.

"This would immediately improve the appearance of the area and rectify what we consider to be an unjust competitive advantage."

The mayor said it should be emphasized that Eaton's didn't originate plans for the mall. The company agreed after the city made the initial suggestion.

Edited by aastra, 18 July 2020 - 12:18 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

their unjust competitive advantage was an unsightly truck loading area?

you just don’t see sears and eatons trading barbs like that so often anymore. perhaps they called a truce.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 18 July 2020 - 12:33 PM.

[Rob Randall]

Exactly. Motorists were street-racing back and forth between Broughton and Pandora & mowing down those swarms of jaywalkers like it was a video game. Video games hadn't been invented yet, so where else could they get a thrill like that?

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=svQzx8OI8PQ

[aastra]

 

their unjust competitive advantage was an unsightly truck loading area?

 

Yeah, because the city's street closure made it possible for them to have that unsightly truck loading area (were the trucks unsightly or was the loading area unsightly, or was there something about the way the trucks were loaded that was unsightly?).

 

Anyway, the controversy seems to indicate how the newer suburban-style operations were regarding downtown's inherent issues as a key element of their business opportunity.

[aastra]

Remember that whole debate about whether the ferries should have a reservation system? Oh, wait, this is from 1959!
 

 

Daily Colonist
August 16, 1959

Angry, Frustrated Tourists Leave City with Full Wallets

Wasted Hours Spent Lining Up for Ferry

Hundreds of irate tourists who waited up to seven hours yesterday to get cars onto the Port Angeles ferry left here firm in their resolve to tell friends not to visit Victoria at this time of year.

...and all for lack of a reservations system which would permit tourists to book space on a given ferry and do as they pleased until a half hour before departure.

All agreed that if they had been able to make a ferry reservation they would have been touring Victoria's downtown shopping district or sightseeing...

[aastra]

Has this editorial aged well? Over the decades we've heroically championed anything and everything in downtown Victoria... except middle-class residential development. Middle-class residential development would obviously be the worst evil of all -- no elaboration required -- and thus even today we're still lukewarm about it generally. Heck, in some instances we're still staunchly opposed, and we bring out the torches and pitchforks.

 

But aastra! Is it really so hard to understand? We want downtown to be a people place! Residential development wouldn't jibe with that overall vision.

 

(FYI: that compliment to drug dealers really turns my stomach. Yes, they're selling self-destruction so organized criminals can become wealthier, but they're doing it with a smile. They're part of the community just like you or me. I understand it was just a joke, but it was a very vile joke.)

 

 

Times-Colonist
October 16, 1998

Cleanup campaign the wrong approach for healthy downtown

Real cities have poverty and problems mixed in with their hanging baskets and downtown boutiques.

...what drives real cities is tolerance, not wishful thinking.

(Mayor) Cross and his council have created and enforced any number of bylaws that share a single message: We don't want your type around these parts. It's no surprise that there was a confrontation recently in Centennial Square between bylaw officers and young people; it has been coming for months.

"I did not want them in that area," said Cross in an editorial board meeting this week. "The issue was how we could shift them out of the square to another place where they could continue to feel safe, because we were hearing from women that they no longer wanted to walk through the square."

Maybe Cross has Saanich or Esquimalt in mind, because so far there has been no place in Victoria that quite fits the bill. Cross has rousted the young people out of Beacon Hill Park, off city sidewalks and away from local beaches, which is why the large group has now come to rest at Centennial Square. There are roofed areas where they can get out of the rain, benches to sit on, a public washroom and space for their dogs.

The young people know their rights: The square is public property, and they can linger as long as they don't break the law. But council just keeps on coming up with new laws to muscle the group along to someplace where they won't offend the tourists or interfere with the business of the well-groomed citizens Cross prefers to see downtown.

"We have worked hard at cleaning things up, making sure the windows are clean and the graffiti is off," said city manager Don Roughley. "With our bike cops, horses and social services teams, we did manage to move some of those people off the streets this summer. It was a better place for the tourists to be."

Is that the goal? Shall we measure the worthiness of Victoria residents by whether they keep the city looking nice for the tourists? Or is there something more to a city than a pretty face that deals with diversity by drafting a bylaw?

Victoria is blessed with a safe and beautiful downtown. Panhandlers, drunks and loiterers mingle daily with shoppers without incident, and even the Broad Street drug dealers are polite. But the more Cross pushes his campaign to clean up downtown, the more he enforces a growing belief that it needs it.

We don't need another mall experience, another controlled environment where the most interesting thing you can look forward to is trying to find a parking space. Real people go downtown.

[aastra]

 

...the more Cross pushes his campaign to clean up downtown, the more he enforces a growing belief that it needs it.

 

Maybe the editorial was correct. Maybe Victorians just need to loosen up and adopt more of an "anything goes" attitude and the street problems would disappear? Maybe the problems aren't the problem. Maybe our attitudes and perceptions about the problems are the problem.*

 

*Looking back now from the year 2020 we can confidently file this theory as fully tested (and re-tested) and confirmed false.

[aastra]

 

...we were hearing from women that they no longer wanted to walk through the square."

 

A lot of progress has been made since 1998. Today many men are also afraid to walk through the square.

[aastra]

Lather, rinse, repeat. How many news stories have we seen from decades past about the waning need for private security in downtown Victoria? We were saying it in the 1990s, we were saying it again in the 2000s, we were saying it again in the 2010s... and now in the 2020s we're still saying it. We'll turn the corner on that issue any day now.

 

Gotta love that part about perceived issues versus reality. So a group of people blocked your way, shouted obscenities at you, and knocked you down... and in your twisted imagination you decided to frame that interaction as though it were threatening? (insert cuckoo bird sound here)
 

 

Times-Colonist
November 28, 1991

Beggars, teens scare shoppers from core

Profane street kids and persistent panhandlers are driving Victoria shoppers away from the downtown area and into suburban malls.

That's the finding of a recent survey... commissioned by the Victoria Business Improvement Association...

...the survey showed only a third of respondents regularly shop downtown.

Respondents criticized downtown Victoria for lacking the cleanliness, convenience and free parking of the malls. They also expressed concern for their personal safety in the city core.

Eighty-eight per cent of respondents said increased police presence should be part of any downtown revitalization efforts.

Despite consumer fears... Victoria police Insp. Brian Hayes said few crimes are actually committed against shoppers walking on streets.

But knots of lippy teenagers, rambunctious skateboarders, tenacious beggars and occasional day-shift prostitutes create an unsettling image - especially for seniors...

"Some groups of young people pose a perceived threat to older shoppers. They often block sidewalks and shout obscenities."

Occasionally pedestrians are knocked down by "unapologetic" skateboarders, Hayes said. At times youths also obstruct passersby.

The police department had two constables begin daytime bicycle patrols last year to assist four colleagues on foot, and another two uniformed cyclists will soon be deployed, Hayes said.

Victoria city councillor Alan Lowe predicted future redevelopments of Bastion Square and of vacant landmarks such as the Sussex Hotel and Marks & Spencer will help rid the area of "undesirables."

Council also wants to revitalize several blocks of Broad Street between city hall and Victoria Eaton's Centre, Lowe said.

The Victoria Eaton's Centre... has helped stop the flow of customers leaving downtown since it opened...

The mall hires private security and centre merchants participate in a neighborhood watch-type program.

[aastra]

If the main attraction is simply the opportunity to stand or sit in a roadway, then why don't we want to close neighbourhood streets, too? Wouldn't it be great if the street where you live was closed to all traffic and thus very quiet, safe, and full of fresh air? We seem to subscribe to a double-standard in this regard. Busy commercial streets which require a big turnover of people, deliveries, taxi service, etc. should be closed to traffic, whereas neighbourhood streets where children and pets play should remain open to traffic.

 

It's also funny how every successive mayor's agenda is to try to make the city more appealing, less insufferably urban, etc. Lots of contradictions inherent in this ongoing premise.

 

 

Daily Colonist
August 18, 1974

Bless the (Broad Street) mall
It's little, modest -- and a hit

It's not quiet. It's not a large area. It's not handsome, despite the flower pots.

But Victoria's minuscule open-air mall between two department store buildings, designed to carry pedestrian traffic from one store wing to the other, has become a crowded social gathering place.

Most of the people sitting on the benches or on the concrete flower pot enclosures don't fall into the must-rush-to-buy category. They are creative loafers who come to the mini-mall to sit and talk and chew and read and smoke and doze and rest.

They do so because traffic, for one timid block of Broad Street, has been barred. The mall became a fact, and the people took to it.

Inner-city malls, as they are sprouting all over major European cities, are examples of rolling back the effects of traffic, air and noise pollution.

The malls in Bonn, Cologne, and Munich for instance, have been instantaneous successes... They allow truck deliveries up to 11a.m. only, then quiet descends and the strollers take over. The stores have added an elegant touch -- display cases with all-round glass right on the pedestrian mall.

In Victoria, after Richard Wilson decided, as mayor, to make the inner city more attractive, his suggestions were carried out and it ended there. The logical step of creating a large pedestrians-only area -- if it was ever considered at all -- never got past the mental block of banning cars.

There are solutions, some simple: park-and-ride; mini-bus shuttle service; parcel delivery; even moving sidewalks.

People need a rest in the downtown area. Rest from shopping, from running, from the office job. The stores would profit from such relaxed, noise-free, clean-air pedestrian malls.

Edited by aastra, 18 July 2020 - 04:11 PM.

[Nparker]

 

creative loafers who come to the mini-mall to sit and talk and chew and read and smoke and doze and rest

aka the unemployed