Jump to content

      













Photo

Temporary Foreign Workers in Victoria


  • Please log in to reply
183 replies to this topic

#41 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:38 PM

Paying wages to non-Canadians who then ship most of their wages out of the country is a good thing for Canada? If you could explain I'd appreciate it.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#42 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:38 PM

As VHF pointed out, there are 300,000 TFW's in Canada while 1.3 million Canadians are not currently employed but most of whom should be employed. It's also no secret the many TFW's do not spend money in Canada, they send the money they earn back to their home country where it is spent by their families or accumulates in savings accounts and awaits their return.

 

By not hiring Canadians we're actually losing out on two fronts.

 

And that's the thing, right?  It's probably not politically correct to point out our cultural differences.  TFWs from, say, Philippines are pretty good at saving money, and working for minimum wage and still sending money home.

 

It might be why they are more popular with employers than hiring say British or Australians, who don't want to just work and sleep, they want to work, sleep, socialize with Canadians and explore their new home.  Thus they might not be as accepting of every single shift asked of them.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#43 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:39 PM

But the flip side of this coin is, if there were no TFWs available, they were simply not allowed, and the ban was enforced, the jobs WOULD get filled by Canadians, but at higher wages (and thus higher prices for consumers using those outlets).  I don't think you can argue this statement.

 

Correct, the jobs would get filled at a higher wage rate or the businesses would be forced to downsize or close.

 

Take a farmer who can't afford to harvest his apples in the Okanagan at a labor rate of $30/hour plus benefits (or whatever the going rate for local labor is). Maybe he is forced to try and sell his apples for $9.99/pound due to the high local labor rate. His business becomes uncompetitive and has to shut down. Is that good for the economy?



#44 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

Correct, the jobs would get filled at a higher wage rate or the businesses would be forced to downsize or close.

 

Take a farmer who can't afford to harvest his apples in the Okanagan at a labor rate of $30/hour plus benefits (or whatever the going rate for local labor is). Maybe he is forced to try and sell his apples for $9.99/pound due to the high local labor rate. His business becomes uncompetitive and has to shut down. Is that good for the economy?

 

That's trickier for sure.  His business becomes uncompetitive due to cheap(er) produce imports that compete on price at the same retailer at the till.  If it's fast-food outlets, we are not competing with outlets in other countries, just other food outlets in the same general area.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#45 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

Right so essentially the TFW program is not unlike bonded labour to some degree. You bring in workers who you know will want to take absolutely any shift you give them, you know they won't stand up for their rights or question your decisions (no matter how much they may disagree with their boss for the right or wrong reasons), and you know they'll put up with the worst conditions you can throw at them just to ensure they maintain their job and wages. Meanwhile TFW's will live five or six to an apartment, legally or otherwise, and likely rent an apartment from someone who is already well versed in the whole TFW program and has cheap lodging lined up for them.

 

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised of the employers who bring in these workers also supply them with housing from which they profit.

 

But one thing you guys are forgetting is that these workers can earn more than their local counterparts. That was the case at the Pandora McDonalds plus there was a $2,000 fee associated with bringing each worker in. How can a business be saving money if they are paying $2,000 per employee plus paying them a higher wage?


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#46 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:45 PM

 

 

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised of the employers who bring in these workers also supply them with housing from which they profit.

 

http://www.timescolo...-wages-1.313693

 

Starting about six years ago, Trozzo said, he hired Filipino staff under the temporary foreign worker program. About 11 were hired. Some now have permanent resident status. One Filipino is still working at the pub.

At one time, three were living in an adjacent property he used to own and another three at his nephew’s home, Trozzo said.

 

- See more at: http://www.timescolo...h.pbqX2VU7.dpuf


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#47 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:46 PM

Paying wages to non-Canadians who then ship most of their wages out of the country is a good thing for Canada? If you could explain I'd appreciate it.

 

Jeez Mike. There's lots of reading on this stuff out there, but there are many sides to any transaction. You are focusing on one.

 

There's the consumer, who is able to purchase their Big Mac because there is the labor to produce it. There is the wealth creator or owner who put up the capital to open the business, who gets to maximize their return on investment because they can find workers. They make money, which they then spend or invest. The tax man gets their share of employment income earned in Canada and any net income from the business, of course.

 

The position being unfilled, or being filled by an over qualified and under utilized employee, would be worse situations.



#48 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:49 PM

To clarify, I think using foreign workers for fast food type jobs is strange and I think as the government cracks down on this stuff they may find quite a few abuses in that industry.



#49 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:50 PM

 

But one thing you guys are forgetting is that these workers can earn more than their local counterparts. That was the case at the Pandora McDonalds plus there was a $2,000 fee associated with bringing each worker in. How can a business be saving money if they are paying $2,000 per employee plus paying them a higher wage?

 

Simple.  Productivity.  Nobody, including the displaced Canadians deny that the TFWs are hard-workers.  Prompt, reliable, fast.  That all adds to productivity.  They can hire 3 TFWs, where in the past they might have to have hired 5 less-productive staff to cover the same shift.  

 

Where a guy crosses the line is when he refuses to even consider Canadian hires, based on his experience with some, preferring instead to turn away every applicant despite qualifications and references, and only hire TFWs.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#50 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:52 PM

 

 

There's the consumer, who is able to purchase their Big Mac because there is the labor to produce it. 

 

...and every time the consumer saves $2.00 at McDonad's, that's $2 more he has in his pocket to spend at Capital Iron.  Multiply that just by the 10,000 transactions at these three McD outlets every day.  These TFWs at just these three McDs are pumping $20,000/day into our economy!  Ya, it's pretty complex.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#51 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:53 PM

The position being unfilled, or being filled by an over qualified and under utilized employee, would be worse situations.

 

 

Worse situations than those over-qualified employees receiving welfare or EI?

 

If someone with a university degree is out of work, are you saying we should prohibit them from seeking work because they are over-qualified? The majority of Canada's immigrants fall within this category, remember. We have doctors, engineers and scientists scrubbing floors and cleaning toilets. That's the reality for Canada's educated immigrants, but Canadian citizens are above meaningful work that pays the bills and earns them a living simply because they're educated in this country and not elsewhere in the world?

 

Simple.  Productivity.  Nobody, including the displaced Canadians deny that the TFWs are hard-workers.  Prompt, reliable, fast.  That all adds to productivity.  They can hire 3 TFWs, where in the past they might have to have hired 5 less-productive staff to cover the same shift.

 

 

Except in my experience at the Pandora McDonalds the other night the language barrier prevented the employees from understanding my order, caused a line-up and resulted in several sandwiches ending up in the garbage. We've had discussions on VV where similar situations have played out at other fast food outlets in town.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#52 spanky123

spanky123
  • Member
  • 11,476 posts

Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

Bottom line is that if an employer could hire local, reliable staff at the wages they can afford to pay then they would. Period. They can't so they turn to the foreign worker program.

 

I think the larger argument is from local groups that advocate $15-$18 an hour minimum wages as a living wage. The foreign worker program greatly undermines their legitimacy in my opinion.


  • Matt R. likes this

#53 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 07:55 AM

Worse situations than those over-qualified employees receiving welfare or EI?

 

If someone with a university degree is out of work, are you saying we should prohibit them from seeking work because they are over-qualified? The majority of Canada's immigrants fall within this category, remember. We have doctors, engineers and scientists scrubbing floors and cleaning toilets. That's the reality for Canada's educated immigrants, but Canadian citizens are above meaningful work that pays the bills and earns them a living simply because they're educated in this country and not elsewhere in the world?

 

Yes because overqualified employees actually underperform. Overqualified employees get bored, have very low job satisfaction and generally leave those jobs quickly as they search for employment that better suits their needs/skills. That leads to very high HR costs for those companies that hire overqualified employees.

 

Say McDonald's hires an overqualified person who is just looking for any job. They stick around for a month while they look for something else. Once they find a better job, they leave. McDonald's has paid for all of their training and costs associated with the learning curve as this employee becomes competent, only for them to leave in short order. That becomes expensive over time.



#54 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:26 AM

Yeah I can appreciate that, but we do have a huge volume of university students working service jobs for years on end here. Many waitresses in town have university degrees but are working in restaurants, I mean if you ask any random waitress in any random restaurant you're very likely to learn that she's either a university graduate or in the process of getting her bachelors, masters or PHD.

This is an issue across North America and not just in Victoria. In some cities the problem is even more pronounced, but the solution to this problem is not to bring in TFW's because our population is overly qualified for the work and should instead aspire to be on welfare, EI or chronically unemployable.

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#55 jonny

jonny
  • Member
  • 9,211 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:39 AM

I don't know Mike. I can't think of a single university student I know of who has worked or aspired to work in fast food either past or present.

 

There are service jobs, like working in retail or at a bar or restaurant. Those can be decent and fun jobs. Working at McDonalds or Burger King is a whole other level of shitty food service work.



#56 VicHockeyFan

VicHockeyFan
  • Suspended User
  • 52,121 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:00 AM

Yeah I can appreciate that, but we do have a huge volume of university students working service jobs for years on end here. Many waitresses in town have university degrees but are working in restaurants, I mean if you ask any random waitress in any random restaurant you're very likely to learn that she's either a university graduate or in the process of getting her bachelors, masters or PHD.

 

And I know one real well that works for DFO part-time and at a pub part-time.  She makes over $30/hr. at the bar, she only keeps the DFO job to keep her resume and advancement opportunities fresh as she continues through higher school levels. 

 

As Jonny says, not many McD or T. Horton's workers are even attending university.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#57 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:23 AM

Are we to believe, though, that TFW's are themselves only qualified to work at McDonald's or other fast food restaurants, that they are uneducated, unskilled and only suitable for physically demanding or low-wage jobs?

 

We still have 15 and 16 year olds looking for employment wherever they can get it, these people have not disappeared. Yes, this age group has always been difficult to work with and they have always posed a challenge to employers, but the TFW program seems to have created an easy-out for employers who pay minimum or the lowest wages and who have traditionally depended on teenagers to fill positions, but these employers are now recognizing that they have an easy-out through offshore headhunters and can pay low wages to workers that are often much older than teenagers, have more life experience, work experience, and who have nothing holding them back locally like a family, social functions, school, etc., etc.

 

Now imagine if we duplicate what is happening with fast food restaurants and start expanding TFW's to other industries. What would people say if, for instance, accounting firms hired TFW accountants on the grounds that local labour just wasn't up to snuff to their expectations? TFW accountants would likely be more productive than local accountants, work longer hours for a monthly salary and would be far less likely to take sick days, vacation days, etc., because they have come here to work and work only.


  • Matt R. likes this

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#58 sebberry

sebberry

    Resident Housekeeper

  • Moderator
  • 18,272 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

So people who are on EI and looking for work have to demonstrate to the government that they're handing out resumes and getting interviews, etc...

 

Do owners of franchised burger joints not have to prove on a regular basis that there's a shortage of suitable local work and that there's a need for TFWs? 


Victoria current weather by neighbourhood: Victoria school-based weather station network

Victoria webcams: Big Wave Dave Webcams

 


#59 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 49,294 posts

Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:23 PM

Do owners of franchised burger joints not have to prove on a regular basis that there's a shortage of suitable local work and that there's a need for TFWs?

 

 

For sure they do and the franchisee has been accused by the Ministry of Employment for falsifying records. From the CBC article the Minister of Employment was quoted as saying:

 

"I have reasonable grounds to believe that this employer provided Employment and Social Development Canada with false, misleading or inaccurate information."

 

And from this CBC article on the issue of TFW's, the President of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said the following:

 

"They’re [TFW's] not going to take the day off because they have to take their dog to the vet. They’re going to show up to work on time, they're going to work a full week without disappearing," Kelly said.

 

So as you can clearly see, the perception among some business owners is TFW's are not simply better workers because they're better in the productive sense, they're better because they are here to only work and have no other local obligations that can pull them away from their work. So while Canadians are being told to look for work elsewhere because they are leading normal lives that require them to make sacrifices from time to time, TFW's are brought in under the guise of filling job positions that Canadians are unwilling to fill.

 

So remind me again, how exactly does a program that is clearly ripe for abuse benefit Canada and Canadians?


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#60 sebberry

sebberry

    Resident Housekeeper

  • Moderator
  • 18,272 posts
  • LocationVictoria

Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:42 PM

Did the McD's issue come up during routine monitoring of their activities or was the investigation triggered by a complaint?  (Maybe I haven't read something).

 

IMO, TFW's should be just that - temporary.  Hired for set durations and then it's time to go home.  I have no issue with the daffodil pickers coming up from Mexico.  I have no problems with welders coming to Canada to help build a bridge should there be a shortage of local welders. 

 

Fast food and other non-seasonal positions of indefinite duration shouldn't qualify for TFWs.  Or if they do, TFW's should only be able to make up xx% of the employees in the workplace. 

 

If you're getting married and want to pay your American friend to photograph the wedding, there's all sorts of paperwork and hoops that must be jumped through.  If your friend comes across the border with his camera gear and the border guard asks if he's doing any work for money, you better hope he's got the papers in order otherwise he's considered to be taking work away from a Canadian photographer and gets turned around on the spot. 

 

A friend of mine works for a multi-national company and was needed at one of their US offices to train employees.  Despite having been there several times previously for meetings, the US decided to turn him back at the border because he was potentially taking work away from an American.  

That was to do some training within the same company, yet we're accepting these TFWs for routine jobs that Canadians are perfectly capable of? 


  • jonny likes this

Victoria current weather by neighbourhood: Victoria school-based weather station network

Victoria webcams: Big Wave Dave Webcams

 


You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users