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Temporary Foreign Workers in Victoria


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#61 Mike K.

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:00 PM

Did the McD's issue come up during routine monitoring of their activities or was the investigation triggered by a complaint?  (Maybe I haven't read something).

 

 

According to the statements made by the minister the Ministry had responded to allegations brought to their attention by the CBC, and sent inspectors to the restaurant(s) to conduct a on-site investigation(s). I don't know how they determined that what was going on had broken the rules, but I would assume that they probably requested the manger on duty to supply them with all job applications that had been recently received. One look at those applications and confirming the number of foreign workers who were employed there would have likely provided enough proof to terminate the franchisee's ability to bring in additional TFW's.

 

And sebberry, you're absolutely right regarding crossing the border to work. Border guards will turn you away even if they suspect you could be working and even if its for only one day or several hours. If they have any suspicions whatsoever that an American might be taking work away from a Canadian no matter how short of a duration that work may be they will turn you away, and vice versa. Meanwhile Canada has brought in 300,000 TWF's while 1.3 million Canadians are out of work.


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#62 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:39 PM

 

So remind me again, how exactly does a program that is clearly ripe for abuse benefit Canada and Canadians?

 

It keeps prices down for Canadian consumers, but allowing employers to employ an efficient and relatively low-cost workforce.  Low prices for you and I mean we have more spending power.


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#63 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:41 PM

 

IMO, TFW's should be just that - temporary.  Hired for set durations and then it's time to go home.  I have no issue with the daffodil pickers coming up from Mexico.  I have no problems with welders coming to Canada to help build a bridge should there be a shortage of local welders. 

 

Fast food and other non-seasonal positions of indefinite duration shouldn't qualify for TFWs.  Or if they do, TFW's should only be able to make up xx% of the employees in the workplace. 

 

 

They are supposed to be maximum 4 years, or in the case of food-line workers, 2 years.  There is lots of evidence that employers routinely break these limits.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#64 Mike K.

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:14 PM

It keeps prices down for Canadian consumers, but allowing employers to employ an efficient and relatively low-cost workforce.  Low prices for you and I mean we have more spending power.

 

Is that actually the case or is that just a theory? Because from what I can see a Whopper at a Burger King with TFW's costs the same as a Whopper at a Burger King without TFW's.


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#65 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:21 PM

Is that actually the case or is that just a theory? Because from what I can see a Whopper at a Burger King with TFW's costs the same as a Whopper at a Burger King without TFW's.

 

It's very hard to measure anecdotally as you are attempting, but the economic principle is very sound.  By some measure, and I have no idea what that measure is, TFWs at McDonalds have lowered prices somewhere in Canada for consumers.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#66 Holden West

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

I seriously doubt you'd see the difference in your pocket change. Slate recently did the math and calculated the cost of bring Wal Mart wages up to a livable standard would only add a penny to a 59 cent box of macaroni and cheese. Any savings from TFWs would be lost in a rounding error.


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#67 Mike K.

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:30 PM

Yeah, I don't buy that sound economic principle any more than I believe that what this franchisee was doing is an isolated incident.

 

If we were paying TFW's 1/2 of the wages of Canadian workers, like how farmers in California pay their illegals 1/4 of the wages or whatever, I could maybe see some savings being passed on to the consumer. But when we're paying TFW's at least as much if not more than Canadians how can we possibly believe consumers are benefiting?

 

The only thing that I think can be attributed to TFW's is a slightly higher profit margin for the boss, if that, and less headaches with hiring and employee retention.


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#68 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:35 PM

Yeah, I don't buy that sound economic principle any more than I believe that what this franchisee was doing is an isolated incident.

 

If we were paying TFW's 1/2 of the wages of Canadian workers, like how farmers in California pay their illegals 1/4 of the wages or whatever, I could maybe see some savings being passed on to the consumer. But when we're paying TFW's at least as much if not more than Canadians how can we possibly believe consumers are benefiting?

 

The only thing that I think can be attributed to TFW's is a slightly higher profit margin for the boss, if that, and less headaches with hiring and employee retention.

 

I already told you - productivity.  I'm gonna pay for you to have some economics lessons.

 

Holden, that Slate article can not possibly have the figures right.  If it were true, Walmart would do it.  For a penny on 59 cents, the benefits to them of having such a better staff would be well worth it, and every one of their in-house economists and accountants would be telling them that.  It's got to be more expensive to them than that. 


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#69 Mike K.

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:04 PM

But your productivity doesn't explain why the price in a restaurant with TFW's is equal to the price in a restaurant without TFW's.

 

I'm going to maintain that only the owner benefits, not the consumer.


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#70 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:08 PM

But your productivity doesn't explain why the price in a restaurant with TFW's is equal to the price in a restaurant without TFW's.

 

I'm going to maintain that only the owner benefits, not the consumer.

 

Head office sets region-wide pricing.  Local franchisees have no control on their prices, no matter if they hire TFWs or all Canadian PhDs at $40/hr.  It's not as easy to see as you suggest to get the big picture of how labour costs affect consumer prices.  But even an entry-level Economics 101 student will explain to you how it does.  When should I schedule your tutor, days or evenings?


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#71 Holden West

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:18 PM

Here is the Slate video explaining the living wage. Note this is American, so food stamps are part of the equation. Still, I think it applies to Canada.

 

As for lame entry-level employees, I lay some blame on supervisors and owners. Some have bad people management skills and are poor motivators. It's sad we have to import workers who I'm sure would rather have employment back home.


"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#72 Mike K.

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

Head office sets region-wide pricing.  Local franchisees have no control on their prices, no matter if they hire TFWs or all Canadian PhDs at $40/hr.  It's not as easy to see as you suggest to get the big picture of how labour costs affect consumer prices.  But even an entry-level Economics 101 student will explain to you how it does.  When should I schedule your tutor, days or evenings?


If your economic theory is based on a metric "hard to measure" and you say you "have no idea what that measure is" then maybe you should ask for a 2-for-1 deal for the two of us  :teacher:   :wave:
 
Seriously though, TFW's bringing consumer prices down in Victoria by a measurable amount is like saying raising taxes to pay for bridge construction overruns is a sound means of protecting tax payers from those cost overruns.
 
Regardless, even if those TFW's did cut $0.02 off the cost of a Big Mac, they are sending their earnings out of the country and not spending it locally like a local, slightly less productive employee would. So this is a good thing for Canada?  :1954_dancing:


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#73 sdwright.vic

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:06 PM

Now come on now Dad & Dad... you know how the kids hate it when you fight! 😮
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#74 LJ

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:44 PM

 

 

And sebberry, you're absolutely right regarding crossing the border to work. Border guards will turn you away even if they suspect you could be working and even if its for only one day or several hours. If they have any suspicions whatsoever that an American might be taking work away from a Canadian no matter how short of a duration that work may be they will turn you away, and vice versa. Meanwhile Canada has brought in 300,000 TWF's while 1.3 million Canadians are out of work.

That door swings both ways of course. Had a couple of friends that bought summer houses in Birch Bay just over the line near Blaine WA. One of the places needed reroofing so the guys went down for a weekend, got all their supplies and started working on the roof. Border patrol shows up, escorts them to the border, and gives them a 5 year ban on entering the US.

(They appealed and got it down to 1 year as it was a first offence.)


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#75 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:10 PM

 

 

As for lame entry-level employees, I lay some blame on supervisors and owners. Some have bad people management skills and are poor motivators. It's sad we have to import workers who I'm sure would rather have employment back home.

 

I'll comment on the Slate video later.  

 

But yes, good call here Holden, no doubt.  A great manager can rally the troops, and encourage the productivity I've spoken of.  But they are not all that common.  A manager that is not given creativity and space by the boss, a guy/gal that just echoes the (poor) management line, might not get any extra out of employees.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#76 Holden West

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 10:25 PM

I like how McDonald's "National Hiring Day" ads are now showing up on this page.

 

Back in the day, if a kid came in where I worked with "McDonalds" on his resume it was practically an automatic hire--no interview necessary because we knew this guy probably was a well-trained, motivated employee. I don't know if that's the case in the 21st century. 


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"Beaver, ahoy!""The bridge is like a magnet, attracting both pedestrians and over 30,000 vehicles daily who enjoy the views of Victoria's harbour. The skyline may change, but "Big Blue" as some call it, will always be there."
-City of Victoria website, 2009

#77 Matt R.

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:39 AM

So much navel gazing.

When's the last time any of you hired a breakfast cook or a dishwasher only to have them flake out on you because their fifth grandmother died or their cat sprained their tail or because, like, man, Shambhala is next weekend. Yes, I've heard all of these. Oak Bay was the worst.

Or give you **** because you told them to put their phone away at work?

Want to know why employers like hiring Mexicans or Brits or Aussies here JUST TO ****ING WORK? Look no closer than home. Employers like people who want to work.

Obviously abuse of the system is bad, but that does not mean the concept isn't sound.

Matt.

#78 Mike K.

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:46 AM

Dishwashing positions are the bottom of the barrel jobs that are physically demanding, stressful, low paying and generally the first exposure someone has with the industry. It will always, anywhere in the world, be a tough position to fill and maintain filled unless the work place has a retention plan in place or other perks that keep the lowest employees on the totem pole around.

If you are in an industry that traditionally relies on young, uneducated, and unskilled labour than that's what you should accept as a part of doing business and be prepared to invest additional time and effort to maintain and motivate staff. Calling in the foreign cavalry instead of addressing the real issue is an abuse of the system.

Whenever I'm at a Red Barn Market which hires predominantly teenagers and early 20-somethings I'm always thoroughly impressed with their work ethic and productivity. Those kids hustle.

So what's Red Barn doing that other businesses aren't?

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#79 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:50 AM


Or give you **** because you told them to put their phone away at work?

 

Tragically, I fear that allowing workers to use their personal phone at work is now becoming a "perk" that many employers use to retain staff.  


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#80 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 06:55 AM


Whenever I'm at a Red Barn Market which hires predominantly teenagers and early 20-somethings I'm always thoroughly impressed with their work ethic and productivity. Those kids hustle.

So what's Red Barn doing that other businesses aren't?

 

Maybe they are large enough to allow people to swap shifts as they please.  That's a great bonus for a larger company.   When you only have, say, one dishwasher for each shift, and he decides to no-show, it's a headache for the employer.

 

A pretty good friend of mine is a dishwasher.  He's a nice guy, but he does not work very fast.  Not lazy, just not quick.  But he's extremely reliable, prompt, will work nights, mornings, weekends, whatever he's asked, stay until he's done, they love him because of that.


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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

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