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Police staffing and salary discussion


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#1 concorde

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 11:22 AM

I was talking to the father of a Victoria cop and his son was making over $150,000 a year with overtime.  Ridiculous!!!  Maybe Victoria Police need some serious reorganization



#2 sebberry

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 01:10 PM

I'd rather have a few more cops on staff than pay overtime to burned out, overworked cops. 

 

I sure hope overtime is reserved for when they can't complete their investigations or paperwork in their work day, and not for patrol duties. 


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#3 David Bratzer

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 04:27 PM

I was talking to the father of a Victoria cop and his son was making over $150,000 a year with overtime.  Ridiculous!!!  Maybe Victoria Police need some serious reorganization

 

Your friend's son must work in senior management or something. All of the salary information is publicly available.


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#4 LJ

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:25 PM

Your friend's son must work in senior management or something. All of the salary information is publicly available.

 

I don't know, I just went to that site, used "constable" for the title and the salary of over 132,000 was shown, with a lot of others in the 120's.

 

And those figures were from 2012, not hard to imaging an increase.


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#5 David Bratzer

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:47 PM

I don't know, I just went to that site, used "constable" for the title and the salary of over 132,000 was shown, with a lot of others in the 120's.

 

And those figures were from 2012, not hard to imaging an increase.

 

An $18,000 increase for the top earning constable in one year?

 

There are some high salaries in that database. Chief Derek Egan with the Saanich Police Department was paid $342,006 in 2009, for example.



#6 LJ

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:05 PM

An $18,000 increase for the top earning constable in one year?

 

There are some high salaries in that database. Chief Derek Egan with the Saanich Police Department was paid $342,006 in 2009, for example.

I was thinking more along the lines of overtime, not so much salary increases.

 

Is there any limit on the OT you can work, are you regulated as to so much time off or can you work as much as you like?


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#7 BlueInk

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:19 PM

 
There are some high salaries in that database. Chief Derek Egan with the Saanich Police Department was paid $342,006 in 2009, for example.


I think this was the year he retired or seems about right for when Saanich changed Police Chiefs. I suspect its high due to payout of vacation or something.

#8 concorde

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:29 PM

I don't see his name in the list, but there are a lot of names withheld.  I would agree the 18k increase could easily come in overtime and maybe a little rounding of the salary.  I've seen the son's house and its easily worth over $1.5 million.  Not bad for a cop with a high school education

 

Now if you want to complain about underfunded police departments, maybe the focus needs to be on far overpaid police staff.  A cop to me is worth 70-80k tops.  Cut their salaries in half and hire twice as many police.  That will solve many problems around Victoria



#9 David Bratzer

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:30 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of overtime, not so much salary increases.

 

Is there any limit on the OT you can work, are you regulated as to so much time off or can you work as much as you like?

 

 

There is a rule where you have to wait a certain number of hours before working your next shift (you can't do a regular shift and then an overtime duty back to back, for example). I think that is for health and safety reasons.

 

There is also a system in place where overtime for special duty events is divided up evenly during the course of the year between officers who apply to do them. Ie. one officer cannot hoard all the overtime for special duty events.

 

The opportunities for overtime come from a variety of sources including private organizations holding special events, dedicated enforcement programs from the provincial & federal governments, etc. It is not really a reflection on any particular police agency for one specific officer to make a lot of overtime.

 

I guess I am just surprised because I work a reasonable amount of overtime and this year I will not be anywhere near $150K (or $130K).  For those who work enough overtime to earn that level of compensation, yes, I'm sure the money is nice, but it can come at a price: lost time with family, exhaustion, health issues, burnout, etc.



#10 David Bratzer

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:42 PM

I don't see his name in the list, but there are a lot of names withheld.  I would agree the 18k increase could easily come in overtime and maybe a little rounding of the salary.  I've seen the son's house and its easily worth over $1.5 million.  Not bad for a cop with a high school education

 

Now if you want to complain about underfunded police departments, maybe the focus needs to be on far overpaid police staff.  A cop to me is worth 70-80k tops.  Cut their salaries in half and hire twice as many police.  That will solve many problems around Victoria

 

It sounds like someone invested wisely in real estate. I'm not sure what the problem is.



#11 sebberry

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:44 PM

The opportunities for overtime come from a variety of sources including private organizations holding special events, dedicated enforcement programs from the provincial & federal governments, etc. It is not really a reflection on any particular police agency for one specific officer to make a lot of overtime.

 

Thanks David.

 

The first comment about private organizations, would those organizations be responsible for hiring the police department or does that overtime fall upon the taxpayer? 

 

And as for special enforcement programs, again why wouldn't that work be assigned to members on regular shifts instead of OT? 


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#12 sebberry

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:46 PM

 A cop to me is worth 70-80k tops.  Cut their salaries in half and hire twice as many police.  That will solve many problems around Victoria

 

We're happily paying teachers that.  When you consider the sort of clients the police have to chauffer around, I'd happily see police officers earning 90-100k.  I'm not sure I agree with the OT opportunities, however.  I think that money could be better spent on additional staff. 


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#13 David Bratzer

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:58 PM

Thanks David.

 

The first comment about private organizations, would those organizations be responsible for hiring the police department or does that overtime fall upon the taxpayer? 

 

And as for special enforcement programs, again why wouldn't that work be assigned to members on regular shifts instead of OT? 

 

OK, to be clear I'm speaking about police departments generally, not any specific agency.

 

Generally I think private organizations pay their own policing costs for special events. See this page regarding the approach used by the Vancouver Police Department for example (although the web site does mention that VPD provides grants of up to $500 to offset policing costs).



#14 Gipper

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:38 PM

I've never made over $100,000 at my police agency. Usually $95,000ish. Most people I work with are the same. The big OT earners are the ones with special additional skills that have them called out a lot.
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#15 concorde

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 07:51 AM

We're happily paying teachers that.  When you consider the sort of clients the police have to chauffer around, I'd happily see police officers earning 90-100k.  I'm not sure I agree with the OT opportunities, however.  I think that money could be better spent on additional staff. 

There is a big difference between teachers and police.  Teachers have to have a 4 year degree and cops need high school (at least that's the standard for RCMP)

 

My big issue is why are we paying so much in overtime?  Hire more cops and put them on call.  Start them out with 2 or 3 days a week until they build more seniority and they can fill in for those extra shifts instead of paying overtime.  If all cops need is high school, hire an extra 100 and put them thru the police academy



#16 sebberry

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 08:16 AM

I would imagine that very few police officers actually got hired with just a high-school education.  Competition for the job is tight and if the recruiting process did in fact select an individual with just a high-school diploma, then that recruit likely was very strong in other key areas making them suitable for the job.

 

I hear you with the OT issue.  If there's work available for which OT is being paid and it's becoming a regular thing, then perhaps more officers need to be hired. 


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#17 Gipper

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 10:16 AM

There is a big difference between teachers and police.  Teachers have to have a 4 year degree and cops need high school (at least that's the standard for RCMP)

 

My big issue is why are we paying so much in overtime?  Hire more cops and put them on call.  Start them out with 2 or 3 days a week until they build more seniority and they can fill in for those extra shifts instead of paying overtime.  If all cops need is high school, hire an extra 100 and put them thru the police academy

 

Union agreements ensure that there won't be part-time and/or casual cops in most English Canadian departments (different in Quebec and some places in the Maritimes), and the on-call pay is quite high. In the RCMP, for example, on-call is paid out at one hour of pay for every four hours of on-call for officers who have to be immediately available and one for eight for officers on non-emergency on-call. You also have to realize that there are costs to having more cops beyond just wages... pension and benefit payments, more people to put through expensive training, more cars and duty equipment to be purchased, larger police buildings required, etc.

 

Personally I prefer our system up here with fewer better paid and trained cops than a place like say New York City where they have over twice as many cops per capita, but poor training, wages, and hiring standards.



#18 concorde

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:34 AM

I would imagine that very few police officers actually got hired with just a high-school education.  Competition for the job is tight and if the recruiting process did in fact select an individual with just a high-school diploma, then that recruit likely was very strong in other key areas making them suitable for the job.

 

I hear you with the OT issue.  If there's work available for which OT is being paid and it's becoming a regular thing, then perhaps more officers need to be hired. 

Why would the competition be tight if Greater Victoria hired say another 500 officers

 

RCMP requirements:

 

To apply as a police officer of the RCMP you must:

 

Union agreements ensure that there won't be part-time and/or casual cops in most English Canadian departments (different in Quebec and some places in the Maritimes), and the on-call pay is quite high. In the RCMP, for example, on-call is paid out at one hour of pay for every four hours of on-call for officers who have to be immediately available and one for eight for officers on non-emergency on-call. You also have to realize that there are costs to having more cops beyond just wages... pension and benefit payments, more people to put through expensive training, more cars and duty equipment to be purchased, larger police buildings required, etc.

 

Personally I prefer our system up here with fewer better paid and trained cops than a place like say New York City where they have over twice as many cops per capita, but poor training, wages, and hiring standards.

then maybe its time to change these archaic rules.  Most companies in the private sector have on call rosters and its simple, no work no pay

 

I once had some work done on my house by a guy who works for the BC prison system as a guard.  I thought he was just getting some extra money, but no he was supplementing his 1-3 days a week at the prison since he couldn't get full time hours as he was junior.  Its time to rearrange the police to work this way too.  why are police special?  Having an extra say 100 cops on call throughout Victoria would really cut costs to taxpayers

 

Why would more cars be required with more cops.  A cop is sick so their car is available.  Bigger buildings - do you think I as a businessman have a bigger office to accommodate people on call?  No.  Pensions and benefits?  Instead of paying overtime, you are now paying regular time to that on call cop.  It doesn't work anything like that in the private sector, why would it work that way for cops.

 

People are pushing for amalgamation, but before we do that lets focus on government waste and this is a prime example



#19 Baro

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:35 AM

Don't forget you can't be too smart,  if you're too smart they can pass you over legally.


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#20 Gipper

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

Don't forget you can't be too smart,  if you're too smart they can pass you over legally.

 

I'd be interested in reading the Canadian statute or case-law that supports this statement.



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