5846 replies to this topic

[Cats4Hire]

Just to be clear are you guys confusing social and financial conservatives or do you you actually believe socially our values need to go back to how they were when the country was founded and unless you are a straight white Christian male you have no rights? If so I'm not sure how you expect us to swing back that direction as I'm pretty sure heterosexual is the only one of those still in the majority in Canada (since by white it means white, no one with native blood or with a black grandfather would count) never mind all 4 together so I really doubt we're going there. 

[rjag]

Just to be clear are you guys confusing social and financial conservatives or do you you actually believe socially our values need to go back to how they were when the country was founded and unless you are a straight white Christian male you have no rights? If so I'm not sure how you expect us to swing back that direction as I'm pretty sure heterosexual is the only one of those still in the majority in Canada (since by white it means white, no one with native blood or with a black grandfather would count) never mind all 4 together so I really doubt we're going there. 

 

Huh? is that what you equate being Conservative with? Thats up there with saying the NDP are Stalinists 

[Cats4Hire]

Huh? is that what you equate being Conservative with? Thats up there with saying the NDP are Stalinists 

that's how my textbook defines socially conservative. While the white, male and christain are probably more extremists I don't see what someone means by socially conservative if they aren't anti-LGBT and anti-abortion (as pro-family is 100% their main platform). If they just mean they aren't on the social justice train neither would most people classed as socially liberal. the SJWs are extremists too just like the group I described. 

[Mike K.]

Just run a google search on what it means to be a social conservative.

It has nothing to do with being a straight white Christian male, unless you happen to be a straight white Christian male who holds social conservative opinions, but you can also be a black lesbian Jewish female and believe in the very same social conservative values.

[Mike K.]

that's how my textbook defines socially conservative. While the white, male and christain are probably more extremists I don't see what someone means by socially conservative if they aren't anti-LGBT and anti-abortion (as pro-family is 100% their main platform). If they just mean they aren't on the social justice train neither would most people classed as socially liberal. the SJWs are extremists too just like the group I described.

Your TEXTBOOK?

Oh my god.

[rjag]

that's how my textbook defines socially conservative. While the white, male and christain are probably more extremists I don't see what someone means by socially conservative if they aren't anti-LGBT and anti-abortion (as pro-family is 100% their main platform). If they just mean they aren't on the social justice train neither would most people classed as socially liberal. the SJWs are extremists too just like the group I described. 

 

Ahhh its what your textbook stated...heres some light reading on that topic 

 

Whats the name of the textbook?

 

http://time.com/5395...ugh-diversity/ 

 

 

 

How Colleges Teach Students to See Bias Where It Doesn’t Exist

Edited by rjag, 16 September 2018 - 07:00 AM.

[Cats4Hire]

Ahhh its what your textbook stated...heres some light reading on that topic 

 

Whats the name of the textbook?

 

http://time.com/5395...ugh-diversity/ 

sorry I added the "white christain..." bit. It defines it as "Believing in social values as similar to that at the time of a countries founding". Same as Wikipedia btw 

 

 

Social conservatism in the United States is a political ideology focused on the preservation of traditional values and beliefs, hearkening back to values believed to be present at the American founding. It focuses on a concern with moral and social values which proponents of the ideology see as degraded in modern society by social democracy and liberalism.^[1] Social conservatism, while defined differently by many scholars, is often conflated with the Christian right. Many religious conservatives push for a focus on Judeo-Christian traditions as a guiding force for the country on social issues, leading them to be considered social conservatives.^[2] Social conservatives are concerned with many social issues such as abortion, sex education, gun control, the equal rights amendment, school prayer, same-sex marriage, and many others.^[3] They oppose many of the cultural changes brought on by the culture wars and the sexual revolution. Summarily, this branch of conservatism is concerned with moral and social issues within the United States and uses tradition, strict morals, and religion as solutions for these problems.

(using the US one because the Canada page is vague but still along the same lines)

 

 

Social conservatism in Canada represents conservative positions on issues of family, sexuality and morality. In the European and North American context, social conservatives believe in natural law as well as traditional family values and policies.

I don't see how either of those definitions don't agree with what my textbook says but feel free to pull up an example from somewhere if you still think my self isn't accurate. The textbook is "Canada's Politics, Democracy, Diversity and Good Government" by Eric Mintz.

 

To be fair here's the Liberal definition of "Believing every person should be equal under the eyes of the law and should not be discriminated against based on their person"

[Mystic-Pizza]

sorry I added the "white christain..." bit. It defines it as "Believing in social values as similar to that at the time of a countries founding". Same as Wikipedia btw 

(using the US one because the Canada page is vague but still along the same lines)

I don't see how either of those definitions don't agree with what my textbook says but feel free to pull up an example from somewhere if you still think my self isn't accurate. The textbook is "Canada's Politics, Democracy, Diversity and Good Government" by Eric Mintz.

 

To be fair here's the Liberal definition of "Believing every person should be equal under the eyes of the law and should not be discriminated against based on their person"

 

that's how my textbook defines socially conservative. While the white, male and christain are probably more extremists I don't see what someone means by socially conservative if they aren't anti-LGBT and anti-abortion (as pro-family is 100% their main platform). If they just mean they aren't on the social justice train neither would most people classed as socially liberal. the SJWs are extremists too just like the group I described. 

 

The Current leader of the Federal Conservative party is a "Fiscal Conservative" And so was Stephen Harper.  

 

Also keep in mind that Wikipedia  entries are done voluntarily, and often do no represent full accuracy in description and or content.  I just read Both Wikipedia Canada & U.S. entries on Social Conservatism and while many aspects of it are correct, I also found some things that are not correct in how the wikipedia author entered it. 

 

Anyone can consider themselves a  Social Conservative........including LGBT, and anyone of any ethnic background.  As a matter of fact I know a homosexual person that considers themselves social conservative when it comes to their political views. Social Conservatism is not frozen in the past as the Wiki entry seems to paint it, but rather it does progress and moves forward with time as the times change.

 

"In Canada, social conservatism, though widespread, is not as prominent in the public sphere as in the United States. It is prevalent in all areas of the country but is seen as being more prominent in rural areas." That being said, social conservatism in Canada is not the same as Social Conservatism in the USA.

 

"Compared to social conservatism in the United States, social conservatism has not been as influential in Canada. The main reason is that the neoliberal or neoconservative style of politics as promoted by leaders such as former Liberal Party of Canada Prime Minister Paul Martin and Former Conservative Party of Canada Prime Minister Stephen Harper have focused on economic conservatism, with little or no emphasis on moral or social conservatism.^[12] Without a specific, large political party behind them, social conservatives have divided their votes and can be found in all political parties.^[13] In fact, many Canadian politicians who hold socially conservative views on a personal level often choose not to pursue them in their political life, including Former Prime Minister Stephen Harper."  "the Conservative Party of Canada, despite having a number of socially conservative members and cabinet ministers, has chosen so far not to focus on socially conservative issues in its platform. This was most recently exemplified on two occasions in 2012 when the current Conservative Party of Canada declared they had no intention to repeal same-sex marriage or abortion laws. - WIKIPEDIA

 

 

 

I myself as a Social Conservative have no interest in my government revisiting same sex marriage or abortion.  It's been done, and done again and the Conservative party has moved on.

 

Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. Liberalism itself branches off into so many subcategories that Liberals can possess a large variety of political, social, and moral beliefs and views that differ from one kind of liberalism to the other. 

Edited by Mystic-Pizza, 16 September 2018 - 07:50 AM.

[Cats4Hire]

That's my problem with political labels and why I don't like applying them to anyone (including myself). Who's to say that Wikipedia page is wrong? For all we know it was written by someone who also identifies as a social Conservative just writing their own beliefs down (and finding sources that apply to them which is easy enough). 

[Casual Kev]

Labels in the political realm evolve in meaning through time and have different meanings to different people at any given moment. For instance, "Liberal" can be someone who aligns with the policies of the Liberal Party of Canada, or anyone who's left of center, or someone who believes in classic liberalism, or someone who subscribes to socially liberal principles. It's tough to nail down a specific train of thought or political current using evolving, oft-used terminology.

 

There's also the problem that our lexicon is heavily influenced by the United States, and nowadays "liberal" is used as somewhat of a pejorative to refer to those left of Trump and the Republican Party; you don't see Democrats or other American left-wingers refer to themselves as "liberal" very often.

Edited by Casual Kev, 16 September 2018 - 11:06 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

you don't see Democrats or other American left-wingers refer to themselves as "liberal" very often.

 

ha, as if. the "future of the party" is democratic socialists!  far left of just "liberal".  they are marxists.  

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 16 September 2018 - 12:38 PM.

[Mystic-Pizza]

In all fairness to myself before I made any further comments on our NEW federal political party  "The People's Party Of Canada"  I just spent the last 2 hours going over their newly created website, researching the leader, his background, and his political career.

 

Is what I have concluded is that the leader is actually a person not to underestimate and he means business with the new party. 

 

The "Peoples Party Of Canada" is without question a solid Conservative Party that intends to replace the current Conservative Party Of Canada. And he just may be able to pull it off.  Many of the points Max makes about why the current Conservative Party can't be fixed is actually bang on because of the direction it has gone in under it's new leader Andrew Sheer. The Conservative Party Of  Canada has abandoned many of it's true conservative values and is now leaning very much to the Left. A "Red" Conservative party is one term to describe when a Conservative Party leans more to the left then it does to the right. Because of this I believe thousands of members of the Conservative Party Of Canada will join this NEW conservative party, as the New party is very much RIGHT leaning and adheres to more conservative values, policies, and morals. If you are already a supporter of the CPC or even a member, you will likely have realized that the party has changed and is no longer the party you originally supported. 

 

Anyhow, the new website for the 'Peoples Party Of Canada" is in its' infancy and doesn't have too much on it yet, but if you want to check it out for yourself http://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/

 

I think that while it's not likely the new party will WIN the election, I believe they will win some seats and perhaps maybe even form the official opposition. 

[lanforod]

It's kind of like this on the spectrum, IMO:

 

L....NDP........Green...Liberals..-..CPC......PPC.....R

 

Social conservatism will likely never be elected to be the governing party in Canada, similar to social and fiscal liberals will likely never be elected. The only path Maxime has is to merge with the CPC or support them in a minority.

[LJ]

I don't think Bernier will attract much support, he may get vocal support from some but at the ballot box they will choose the party most closely aligned with their views that have a chance of winning and that will not be PPC. He may win a couple of seats, he could even wind up with the seats to prop up a minority election. The down side to that is you would have to toe his line not your party line or he would jump ship. Sort of the opposite of Weaver who is so hungry for a little bit of power and a soapbox that he will forgive Horgan anything.

[Mystic-Pizza]

I don't think Bernier will attract much support, he may get vocal support from some but at the ballot box they will choose the party most closely aligned with their views that have a chance of winning and that will not be PPC. He may win a couple of seats, he could even wind up with the seats to prop up a minority election. The down side to that is you would have to toe his line not your party line or he would jump ship. Sort of the opposite of Weaver who is so hungry for a little bit of power and a soapbox that he will forgive Horgan anything.

 

Could be.........we are a long time off for the Federal Election. The PPC is only 2 days old, yet we know he has a backer of major importance and influence that he has yet to reveal. I have (and I say this with oddness) considered that it could be Mulroney. Max has already got my ear because he has been able to successfully demonstrate that the CPC has fallen to the LEFT to the point that the CPC is actually backing Trudeau on issues that it sees will get them VOTES if they side with.  As a social conservative I don't like the way the CPC is going, Max is right when he says that the CPC is going LEFT in order to attract Liberal Voters that lean right for the next election. Yet if all the CPC voters swap over to the PPC then we have to deal the the real issue of splitting the vote......which no conservative wants to see. Trudeau is loving the creation of the PPC because he sees the Glory in it for his party if the vote is split to the point that it will re-elect his party almost effortlessly. Max is comfortable with identifying himself as a Fiscal Conservative (which he is without question).........but is he willing to sacrifice his strong identity within conservatism just to see if CHANGE can be accomplished by creating a new Conservative Party that he vows will return to TRUE conservative values? ........I think so.  Harper CHANGED the Conservative movement with such success that he managed to LEAD this country for an almost Record setting time in Canadian History. That being said............since his departure a leader was selected that has abandoned the core of conservative values and is now closer to the LEFT the the conservative party has ever been. MAX if he plays the game correctly over the next year just may pull off an Official opposition status. 

[tedward]

... you can also be a black lesbian Jewish female and believe in the very same social conservative values.

 

Huh?!?  "Social Conservative" as I understand it is generally the opposite of "Progressive". I thought it was generally understood to mean opposition to things like gay marriage.

 

Can you provide some examples of, "social conservative values" that the above-described person could support?

Edited by tedward, 17 September 2018 - 08:48 AM.

[RFS]

Liberal MP just crossed the floor to the conservatives

[lanforod]

Huh?!?  "Social Conservative" as I understand it is generally the opposite of "Progressive". I thought it was generally understood to mean opposition to things like gay marriage.

 

Can you provide some examples of, "social conservative values" that the above-described person could support?

 

Copied from someone's quote on Quora, similar to how I would respond to that question (it's a good question by the way):

 

 

I am socially conservative but I believe same-sex marriage should be legal. Here is my reasoning using conservative logic. Marriage is a religious issue. I don’t want the government telling me anything about how to practice my religion. While my religion doesn't allow for same sex marriage, I don’t like the government limiting anybody’s religion. I think conservatives can agree with that.

That being said, I support people’s right to “discriminate” against marriages they don’t agree with. If I own a wedding cake or photography business, I shouldn't be sued for not providing my service. That is limiting my property rights. I have a wedding cake, you want to buy it. I say no. That should be the end of it. Instead the government barges in like the kool-aid man and forces me to sell my cake. Not cool.

 

Source: https://www.quora.co...e-sex-marriage 

[lanforod]

Liberal MP just crossed the floor to the conservatives

https://torontosun.c...loor-to-tories 

[Casual Kev]

She really must've hated being canned as the Parliamentary Secretary, and no surprise Scheer instantly billed her as a minister-in-waiting. Pretty solid blow to the Liberals.