1112 replies to this topic

[Nparker]

Since there seems to be some confusion, I thought I should post some images of actual parking lots.

[zoomer]

Except according to your definition.. the Hillside Mall parking lot is... NOT a parking lot. It has a very similar oval shape wrap around shape with lots of greenery! I remember Hillside boasting about how green their parking lot would be when they did the redevelopment several years back.  Rows of trees in a parking lot, what a concept!  Heck even Clover Point doesn't have all those nice green trees in it's parking lot. Let me guess, a parking lot has to have a certain number of stalls.. that's the next come back?  Clover Point is a park with a parking lot as most parks do.  Let's not stoop to the language trickery of the far left or far right to make a political point.  You want all parking retained - cool, just say so! It's like folks are embarrassed to admit that or something.

 

 

[Tom Braybrook]

i am hearing rumours that this "parking lot" up on the malahat is the next target to pedestrianize.... i mean, they call it a "lookout" but it is a parking lot - cars park there and not much else - right?

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Edited by tommy, 28 February 2021 - 11:44 AM.

[Nparker]

Except according to your definition.. the Hillside Mall parking lot is... NOT a parking lot. It has a very similar oval shape wrap around shape with lots of greenery!...

 

You'd be right if that was my definition of a parking lot.

[rmpeers]

I thought we settled this... it's a parking lot, but if you prefer to call it a different type of parking lot I'm good with that. Picture below from the Richmond News article about two vehicles plunging over the edge of the cliffs. Ok, now who in their right mind would picnic in the middle of this? I never have, I never stop there. If you have kids or pets you certainly wouldn't. What part of that ice cream cone shape would you feel safe in with your family? Sure you could fence it all in, then it feels like you're in a small dog park for humans, separated from the main point of going to Clover Point to start with. When they remove the west facing portion of the parking lot, then that land becomes far more usable, but still, can't see it being an ideal picnic spot.

You can tell it's a parking lot because it so green. Obvious.

[Victoria Watcher]

they could have just put the turn-around right about here at the red circle.  leave the parking in at the very tip.  then they could have removed all the pavement on the top (west) side there.  and even moved the entry road as far east as possible.  that would have opened lots of green space connected to the rest of the lawns area up at the top of the bluffs.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 28 February 2021 - 12:09 PM.

[zoomer]

A reasonable solution Victoria Watcher - it preserves most parking including the coveted sunset view while allowing for much better pedestrian use at the same time. Folks it can be that simple. Personally I would remove about 5 more parking spaces in your diagram, but it’s close.

NParker, if your personal definition of parking lot makes you happy, then I’m happy for you too. I tend to go with the dictionary definition:

“an area, usually divided into individual spaces, intended for parking motor vehicle”.

https://www.dictiona...wse/parking-lot

Rmpeers - I’m not sure how often you get down to Clover Point, but that green part is not used for parking*, that’s actually the park portion. It’s green much of the year, but then goes that dry yellow come summer. The parking lot portion is the asphalt section with painted lines for individual spaces around that green space.

*I believe the inside park was used for Deuce Days though a couple years back, but it would have been dry and hard so probably little to damage was caused.

[Nparker]

...I tend to go with the dictionary definition: “an area, usually divided into individual spaces, intended for parking motor vehicle”.

And if that's all there was at Clover Point then it could be considered a parking lot; however there is an abundance of green space that already has non-vehicular uses (for example, those pesky kites you mentioned before), so by the dictionary definition CP is not a parking lot.

[rmpeers]

A reasonable solution Victoria Watcher - it preserves most parking including the coveted sunset view while allowing for much better pedestrian use at the same time. Folks it can be that simple. Personally I would remove about 5 more parking spaces in your diagram, but it’s close.

NParker, if your personal definition of parking lot makes you happy, then I’m happy for you too. I tend to go with the dictionary definition:

“an area, usually divided into individual spaces, intended for parking motor vehicle”.

https://www.dictiona...wse/parking-lot

Rmpeers - I’m not sure how often you get down to Clover Point, but that green part is not used for parking*, that’s actually the park portion. It’s green much of the year, but then goes that dry yellow come summer. The parking lot portion is the asphalt section with painted lines for individual spaces around that green space.

*I believe the inside park was used for Deuce Days though a couple years back, but it would have been dry and hard so probably little to damage was caused.

I will accept "park with roadway/parking area around the outside."

[zoomer]

I agree! Could this all be a simple misunderstanding! Yes, I think so! As I’ve said about 4 times already here, but for one final time (I promise, because this horse is six feet deep already) - Clover Point is a park with green space and rocky shores. It also has a parking lot. That is all. Good day sirs...

[max.bravo]

I agree! Could this all be a simple misunderstanding! Yes, I think so! As I’ve said about 4 times already here, but for one final time (I promise, because this horse is six feet deep already) - Clover Point is a park with green space and rocky shores. It also has a parking lot. That is all. Good day sirs...

It’s not just a park with a parking lot. you miss the point.

It’s a scenic lookout, a viewpoint, a makeout point, etc. I did a google scholar search to find park/urban/land use planning or leisure studies articles about this kind of place, but it seems not much is written about them. I’m guessing it’s because they were (formerly) seen as self-evidently valuable and valid- kind of an implied good type of amenity.

That’s not to say these spaces aren’t important. Google search for ‘lookout point’ or ‘viewpoint parking’ and you’ll find tons of buzzfeed and pop culture love for the kind of place Clover Point already is.

It’s not just a park- it’s the kind of place that’s deeply embedded in our cultural identity. That’s why there is so much uproar about this attempt at ‘place making’ this area— it’s already VERY MUCH a ‘place’ in the minds of its users.

It’s where you parked with your high school sweetheart and kissed her for the first time.

It’s where you went to cry alone in your car after your dad died.

It’s the place you remember laughing with your sister when a seagull **** right on the windshield.

It’s a public place you can enjoy in full intimacy within your car and with whoever you park there with. To lose that is actually pretty sad for the majority of users.

The ‘lookout point’ place is a hollywood trope for a reason. Clover Point is already being put to its best possible use as a loop with lookout parking. People should be very upset that a small minority of anti-car anti-fun looney tunes are taking that away.

Edited by max.bravo, 28 February 2021 - 06:14 PM.

[Mike K.]

It’s not just a park- it’s the kind of place that’s deeply embedded in our cultural identity.

This just won the Internet award today.

[Nparker]

...It’s not just a park - it’s the kind of place that’s deeply embedded in our cultural identity. That’s why there is so much uproar about this attempt at ‘place making’ this area — it’s already VERY MUCH a ‘place’ in the minds of its users.

Exactly. The bizarre 21^st century concept of "place making" is entirely superfluous at Clover Point.

[rmpeers]

Exactly. The bizarre 21^st century concept of "place making" is entirely superfluous at Clover Point.

I can't imagine anyone with any appreciation of beauty and the outdoors looking at a fantastic place like CP and deciding it needs fixing. Boggles the mind.

It'd be as insane as, say, banning traffic from the BHP lookout.

[zoomer]

Sorry max bravo, I'm not sure I understand your point..? 

 

The point I was making that Clover Point is a park with a parking lot, as it appeared that some people thought I said the entire point was a parking lot, or they thought no parking lot in fact exists there.  I stated the facts - it's a park with a parking lot, that is all - in order to be clear on that point (clover.. get it, lol).  By 'that is all' I did not mean it wasn't a significant or important park as you'll soon read.  The fact that it's an iconic location and significant to many people and could be argued to be part of a greater Victoria cultural identity is a discussion that wasn't related to the factual clarification. 

 

I've already stated that I'm not opposed to keeping parking there, just reducing it to one side and allowing for better pedestrian use and connection to the rest of the natural environment.  Popular parks always have to manage parking vs. green space, vs. pedestrian access - this is nothing new - although I can empathize with those who feel their voice has not been heard by some on city council.

 

Clover Point, along with Beacon Hill, Mount Tolmie, Mount Doug, Esquimalt Lagoon, the Malahat (and others I've missed) are wonderful lookouts you can drive to and park at.  Of those, probably Clover Point is the most accessible without a vehicle, but as you said for many there is a romantic/nostalgic connection with being in a car at these locations.   Take away parking from these locations and many of them would be out of reach for most people or not accessible by some disabled people.

 

Now, the vast majority of my time at Clover Point and the beaches on other side is by foot, but that hasn't made it any less significant or important for me.  I have those same powerful memories and connection that people in vehicles do.  It is more than a park to me, it's where I've gone after every death in my family, it's where I take my now 14 year old dog dozens of times per year because he loves to swim in the ocean, although in the last couple of years we usually go to the protected side by the boat ramp for the swimming part.  It's where his ashes will be set to sea, and in time mine as well.  This past August I did my usual walk from Clover Point to the Breakwater a week before my Uncle died of cancer, knowing he had little time left.  As per my tradition I looked for a rock by the water that would jump out at me, so to speak, something that represented him. I have it at home with me on my kitchen table and look at it every day, sometimes running water over it to bring back the rich colours. I did this for my twin sister when she died at 39 years of age as well.. with a long emotional walk down Moss street to the ocean and the Point.  So yes, trust me when I tell you I get the significance of this place.  Here's the rock I brought back in memory of my Uncle.  When I die I've asked my kids to bring back the rocks I've taken and return them to the beach - I'm only borrowing them, they belong back in this place. 

 

Apologies if I've upset anyone with my previous comments, or have appeared insensitive. 

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[tanker]

Maybe we should come up with a list of parks that are actually "parking lots" in Victoria and get council working on destroying them too. My vote is we start with anything in the uplands area first. 

[Nparker]

Maybe we should come up with a list of parks that are actually "parking lots" in Victoria and get council working on destroying them too. My vote is we start with anything in the uplands area first. 

The Uplands is (thankfully) outside the jurisdiction of the clowns at Victoria city hall.

[Urbanpioneer]

It’s not just a park with a parking lot. you miss the point.

It’s  a makeout point,

It’s where you parked with your high school sweetheart and kissed her for the first time.

It’s a public place you can enjoy in full intimacy within your car and with whoever you park there with.s.

 

Sounds like a parking lot full of perverts ... bring on the tents!

[Nparker]

Sounds like a parking lot full of perverts ... bring on the tents!

Can you guarantee there will be no intimacy in the tents?

[rjag]

What a beautiful day! I put the roof down this afternoon and drove along the waterfront to King George Terrace where I parked for a few minutes and enjoyed the view, then I left and drove further along Beach to the Marina where I parked again, took in a different view, bought a coffee and a snack then drove through the Uplands and through Uvic to Mt Tolmie and drank my coffee at the viewpoint before going home. Each stop maybe 5-10 mins and well worth it. If Clover Point was open I would have added that to the trip as well. No-one was hurt, no children were put in danger, no member of TV or GVCC had to resort to smelling salts and pearl clutching as a result of what I and lots of other people did today.