1201 replies to this topic

[lanforod]

I'm arguing for, but the others have a point - we need to do more than just close down the street, as that won't make enough of a difference. I don't the the demand is there to convert it completely. I'm also not convinced that attracting stores like H & M would make the difference either, so long as those stores also exist at Mayfair, Hillside, or Uptown.

 

What I wouldn't mind seeing is a conversion to something similar to George St. - this would mean a major change from touristy stores, to bars, restaurants and nightclubs.

[rjag]

The Bard and Banker building is owned by Matt MacNeill so no lease not sure about Irish Times.

 

Regardless of whether Matt owns the building or not, rent will be paid. The building will most likely be owned by a holding company with a fair market value lease in place to the operator of the pub which just happens to have the same Directors in common. This way if he so chooses he will be able to sell the pub to another operator in the future and show the proper values to be true as it will be paying FMV rents.

[jonny]

I'm arguing for, but the others have a point - we need to do more than just close down the street, as that won't make enough of a difference. I don't the the demand is there to convert it completely. I'm also not convinced that attracting stores like H & M would make the difference either, so long as those stores also exist at Mayfair, Hillside, or Uptown.

 

My point was that it's too bad there wasn't an organized, concerted effort back a few years ago to turn Govt. Street into a shopping mall when those stores were first expanding to Victoria. In my fairy land, ideal world, stores like H&M and BR would be downtown (Govt St would be ideal) instead of Mayfiar/Hillside/Uptown.

[dasmo]

^ exactly... And you can blame Ken Kelly for that. He thought a pilot program of installing cameras downtown was a good idea....
I'm will to bet his opinion on this has changed. If it has not then a campaign to replace him is the very first step...

Other things that have changed? More residential downtown. How do the people living downtown feel about the idea?

[29er Radio]

I personally walked around downtown with the H&M rep when they were
considering Victoria. Even with our high tourist numbers, Victoria was WAY
down on their list of things to do. Their price margins are so tight that
the rent they would pay would make it very hard to do a deal on Government
and they were prepared to do a multi level store(generally spreads costs to cheaper floors above).

The events mentioned that take place "on" Government St are great reasons to shut down the street temporarily. Again I will submit that we have to
change the fundamentals. We have to stop following Jane Jacobs lead and
requiring ground retail on every development. We have to stop requiring
developers to include a break in their full block buildings which
removes the ability to do a deal with a major retailer downtown, as the
floor plates are cut up too much.

Dasmo, ironically you are probably 10 years too early on this plan and I am sure if it ever happens successfully, we will hear a resounding "I TOLD YOU SO" and more than likely there will have been 5 other projects that had to
occur before the closing of Govt St became successful, but the end result
will appear to be that shutting down the street worked.

[Bingo]

We have touched on the empty rental space, but I think that is a symptom common to a lot of areas including new building space.

You could start a thread on the empty rental space in the region, and we could fill it with dozens of photographs in a couple of days.

So if Government Street is to be the place to turn this symptom around we need to look the reasons why those buildings in the previous photos are empty, and not get caught up in the "if we build it they will come" idea.

[D.L.]

Today's TC: Victoria mayor seeks tax break for ailing Government Street - See more at: http://www.timescolo...h.SjZFuh25.dpuf

 

I question why taxpayers should subsidise the landlords. Although I suppose leases pass the tax bill on the the tenant anyways.

[Mike K.]

OK great, now our mayor is creating an incentive to allow landlords to "struggle." Get politicians the hell out of this, this isn't their place.

Reign in your spending, for God's sake, and the rest will follow.

[29er Radio]

If we viewed the downtown city streets as part of a team and each street had particular jobs to do, then a coach of said team could rightly want to help the "star" player perform at their best, and then the debate is about how to have that happen. You can focus on your star or help the other team mates perform better.

 

We are in panic mode, rightly or wrongly, and are continually ignoring all the potential to the north of the downtown core where serious change could occur for the better which would in turn help Government St and I still contend just dealing with Govt st, and this tax idea is crazy and I will let her know how I feel on our next LG&E show, will not solve the problem. It is a wider issue than

just Govt St

[VicHockeyFan]

Today's TC: Victoria mayor seeks tax break for ailing Government Street - See more at: http://www.timescolo...h.SjZFuh25.dpuf

 

I question why taxpayers should subsidise the landlords. Although I suppose leases pass the tax bill on the the tenant anyways.

 

They do in a NNN lease.  But of course, if a landlord sees that now the tax bill is $120/mo. less, there is no way to prevent him from upping their rent by that much.

[VicHockeyFan]

OK great, now our mayor is creating an incentive to allow landlords to "struggle." Get politicians the hell out of this, this isn't their place.

Reign in your spending, for God's sake, and the rest will follow.

 

Yes, let's not pick and choose certain areas.   Bring the tax rates down for everyone.

[dasmo]

Forget the tax break! just make the zone worth the higher rent....By making it a wonderful pedestrian mall that people want to stroll at all hours. Speaking of Uptown, I ask again...What is the most popular area? The pedestrian only zone....

[dasmo]

Note, this idea has a VV 89.47% approval rating!

[Bingo]

That's 27 votes for Yes and 7 votes for Depends...phew!

[tedward]

Here is a[n exerpt from the] 2009 statement from the DVBA:

At present, there is a reasonable volume of vehicular traffic on Government Street and it moves at a low speed. With the street being open to traffic, drivers and their passengers are exposed to the wonderful array of businesses that they may wish to support. Pedestrian malls in Canada have generally had a poor record of success and lack of exposure to vehicular traffic is one of the reasons for their failure.

 

Frankly I find this line of thinking suspect. No one is cruising Government street looking for a place to shop. It would be pointless anyway because you cannot just stop and park.  There are only two catagories of shoppers on Government St: tourists and locals. Tourists are generally on foot (or tour vehicle) and will happily browse for stores. Locals know what is there (more or less) and have to park somewhere anyway. Both will be have a better shopping experience if this section of the street becomes a pedestrian mall filled with food carts, perfomers, artists etc.

The few people who drive up this stretch of Government can easily be rerouted without signifcant inconvenience. Driving up Government st is something you only do if you don't have to get anywhere in a hurry and/or are planning on turning onto one of the side streets which can al be accessed from Wharf or Douglas anyway.

That said, I think deliveries at certain times of day is a reasonable accomodation and would support the previous retractable bollards idea. I also see no reason why we should require developers to include ground floor retail. Let them build all-residential if the market warrants - see sometimes I can support market-driven decision making.

Edited by tedward, 28 January 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Mike K.]

Good point regarding buses, tedward. Just where will the hoards of tourist buses go if Government becomes ped only? They're slow, they impede traffic, many of them outright stink, and suddenly they'll all funnel onto Douglas or Wharf? Quite honestly a lot of the tourism activity in this city is downright disruptive. Everyone breathes, literally, a sigh of relief when tourist buses disappear in the fall but luckily they all love to cruise along Government and stay (mostly) out of the way of city traffic.

[Layne French]

My point was that it's too bad there wasn't an organized, concerted effort back a few years ago to turn Govt. Street into a shopping mall when those stores were first expanding to Victoria. In my fairy land, ideal world, stores like H&M and BR would be downtown (Govt St would be ideal) instead of Mayfiar/Hillside/Uptown.

 

Baskin Robbins? 

 

I think much of the trouble lies in attracting locals to support the retail on this street the entire year around. If Mike is right and Government is one of the most expensive streets in the country, very few of the other expensive streets are full of shops that hock cowichan sweaters, smoked salmon, maple syrup and carvings. Although I think alot will disagree, I feel the BK and the 7-11 serve as a tiny draw for the non tourist crowd, whether you like it or not is up for debate. 

 

Honestly on a typical night I don't think Stephen Avenue, or Sparks St are a very far cry from the activity level of Government. In fact Stephen Ave is busier now that the let cars drive down it at night than before when it was only pedestrian 24/7. 

 

I'm not supportive of issuing tax breaks at the municipal level, I can't see this working in any capacity.

[Jason-L]

Actually, I think the most popular area of Uptown, based on pedestrian traffic, is inside Wal-mart.  Qoola and Future Shop may be next.  The central courtyard is busy almost entirely because it's in front of Walmart, and thus needs to be traversed to get anywhere.

 

The key is that there's a huge driver for traffic at Uptown, and it's Wal-mart.  It's not that there's a big space for people to try and avoid other people trying to get into and out of Wal-mart.

Edited by Jason-L, 28 January 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[VicHockeyFan]

Frankly I find this line of thinking suspect. No one is cruising Government street looking for a place to shop. It would be pointless anyway because you cannot just stop and park.  There are only two catagories of shoppers on Government St: tourists and locals. Tourists are generally on foot (or tour vehicle) and will happily browse for stores. Locals know what is there (more or less) and have to park somewhere anyway. Both will be have a better shopping experience if this section of the street becomes a pedestrian mall filled with food carts, perfomers, artists etc.

The few people who drive up this stretch of Government can easily be rerouted without signifcant inconvenience. Driving up Government st is something you only do if you don't have to get anywhere in a hurry and/or are planning on turning onto one of the side streets which can al be accessed from Wharf or Douglas anyway.

That said, I think deliveries at certain times of day is a reasonable accomodation and would support the previous retractable bollards idea. I also see no reason why we should require developers to include ground floor retail. Let them build all-residential if the market warrants - see sometimes I can support market-driven decision making.

 

I agree tedward.

[dasmo]

Baskin Robbins? 

 

I think much of the trouble lies in attracting locals to support the retail on this street the entire year around. If Mike is right and Government is one of the most expensive streets in the country, very few of the other expensive streets are full of shops that hock cowichan sweaters, smoked salmon, maple syrup and carvings. Although I think alot will disagree, I feel the BK and the 7-11 serve as a tiny draw for the non tourist crowd, whether you like it or not is up for debate. 

 

Honestly on a typical night I don't think Stephen Avenue, or Sparks St are a very far cry from the activity level of Government. In fact Stephen Ave is busier now that the let cars drive down it at night than before when it was only pedestrian 24/7. 

 

I'm not supportive of issuing tax breaks at the municipal level, I can't see this working in any capacity.

and my proposal would allow cars at night. We have to look at success and not failure here. We are already failing so in some respects there is nothing to lose....