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Housing People - What Works?


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#21 gumgum

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 09:28 PM

^^Still d/t Vancouver is doing the family thing better than any NA city I could think of other than maybe New York.

#22 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 10:25 PM

But a school with a population of only 335 students is a very small school in Vancouver. Honestly, whenever I walk around Yaletown I see few children, except those in strollers. Eventually the parents move to the burbs, Im sure.

Again, I have to agree with Jada -- there's something to be said for anecdotal evidence ("I see few children, except those in strollers."). Granted, the school is a great sign, but...

See, I rented an apartment with my kid (& spouse), until we started to look for a condo to buy. (This was in a city far far away from here, in a time far far away from this time.... <cue the music...>) The only places relatively suitable were 2-bdrm places being sold by people who were selling because ...they were expecting kid #2. So the 2-bdrm condo thing was ok if you had one kid, but once #2 was on its way, these people were looking for something with a bit of room for expansion. ...Which naturally made me question why we would want to buy into a situation they were so desperately trying to sell off... The housing market as it existed where I lived at that time was ok for a single-child arrangement, but as soon as that limit was tested, people bolted.

So my question in view of that encouraging article about the Vancouver school would be: are people staying in the core Vancouver area if they are planning to have more than one kid? Is this school servicing families who fit the only-child or the recent-immigrant profile, or are they serving families who actually are having more than one kid? (And before anyone goes all Malthusian on me, please keep in mind that overpopulation is hardly Canada's problem; 2 kids isn't a crime, it's simple replacement -- you want someone to pay into your social services fund when you're an old geezer, right?)

The other thing is: it used to be the case that families with 2 or 3 or more kids could squeeze into a city apartment and save money. That is, fitting themselves into a small(ish) apartment was an economic necessity that was, whatever its shortcomings, a possibility and affordable. Now, that apartment costs as much to buy as that 2500sq.ft. attached townhouse in Langford, if not more, so there's absolutely no incentive for families to stay in the core if they can at all afford to get out -- unless they're well-off enough to start with or happened to inherit a house in James Bay or Vic West or wherever. (You know: making money the "old fashioned way," i.e., inheriting it.) And at the same time, there's not a heck of a lot of rental stock -- hardly any at all-- for families.

I'm not optimistic about "engineering" this social question in any way. It's kind of depressing to think of cities as squeezing middle class people, especially if (as Ada put it so poignantly) they're "breeders," into the suburbs. But that seems to be what they do. I think that's part of what explains the rabid anti-"development" sentiment among the NIMBY crowd, too (i.e., in some cases development leads to a monoculture) . What I don't like about the latter is that they confuse development in the core downtown with intrusion into their neighbourhood turf, and I don't like that the NIMBY crowd already have their real estate carved out and seem mostly to resent changes to their status. I mean, it's not exactly the case that NIMBYs in Fairfield are "protecting" middle class family-oriented housing, unless you define it as being able to mortgage your way into a $700K house.
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#23 renthefinn

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Posted 04 February 2007 - 10:28 PM

I got a kid and moved to the west end. We'll be there for at least a year or two, and then hopefully move back to Victoria, but untill then I'm in limbo!

#24 G-Man

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 07:31 AM

Alright, I will for arguments sake forget the recent school construction in Vancouver and we can turn our attention back to Victoria.

Is it possible that current construction downtown, though small in unit size, is necessary to create a base population that will bring in services before more family oriented units are built. Keep in mind that current construction is not displacing any of the current population as it has all been built on parking lots. Downtown Victoria had its population almost completely squeezed out. Perhaps there is a necessity of some pioneer population to be in place so that services will be brought in, grocery stores, rec centres, etc.

Also in light of Gene Miller's blurb on housing in the TC this morning (sorry I don't have time to paste it and it really is more about homelessness) what blame can we put on city hall for the limiting size of buildings. Remember current allowed buildings are 14 storeys at a 3:1 density. Could city hall say that we will allow you to build bigger in trade for bigger units? Would that help or would costs of the building push it too high for the average family to consider it?

Does the average family want to live downtown?

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#25 NMP

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:01 AM

Does the average family want to live downtown?


IMO, no, and for good reason. It simply goes against most of expectations of family with kids lifestyle. Generally higher housing costs don't work for a family that needs more space. Generally more busy surroundings don't work for managing smaller kids.

I can see younger people and smaller families enjoying downtown lifestyle; same for empty nesters. Not so much for families with kids. All things cannot equally appeal to all people, this is just one of those cases IMO, and to change it you would have to change what downtown is about... which would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

#26 Mike K.

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:37 AM

I don't think you'd have to change what downtown is about. All you'd have to do is allow a broader range of living units and amenities for a broader range of needs. That's it.

Much of Europe's selection of digs are in high-density urban areas. People learn to live with noise, with the rush of an urban area and free of private frontyard/backyard space. It's just a matter of adapting.

In Victoria the notion of raising a family in an apartment is new and discouraging for some but on a global scale it's the rule and not the exception.

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#27 G-Man

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:46 AM

It is an interesting point though that NMP raises and I think it is key to the problem.

There is a perception that downtown is not for families. Why? And if downtown is not for families what about the surrounding neighbourhoods. Certainly Fernwood and Fairfield are full of young families. Even North Park is full of kids. I would wonder why North Park would be considered kid friendly and Downtown would not.

Just a few years ago the idea that ANYONE would want to live downtown was laughed at. Yet here we are with numerous buildings going up and people are moving back downtown.

Perhaps this goes back to my earlier point that these new downtown dwellers are the pioneers and once services are developed more family oriented space will follow.

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#28 NMP

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:42 PM

People learn to live with noise, with the rush of an urban area and free of private frontyard/backyard space. It's just a matter of adapting.


Well... they very well could learn and adapt, but the question is whether it's good for them, or if you will, which option is better for them. Ability to adapt itself is hardly a valid criterion, after all, in some Eastern Europe countries it was a norm that three generations co-existed in the same overcrowded and rather small apartment, and learned and adapted.

#29 NMP

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:45 PM

It is an interesting point though that NMP raises and I think it is key to the problem.


See, my main question is, why consider it a problem at all? Is it totally unacceptable simply to acept that different living environments are suitable for different categories, and classify downtown as not the best fit for families with smallish kids? I mean, why the need to make everything universal?

#30 G-Man

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:48 PM

I don't think noise is the issue that is stopping people from living downtown. In fact I would say that is more a design issue. The hotel I stayed at in Manhattan was significantly quieter than my home in Victoria. I am not talking about windows either as I sleep with it open in both places.

I guess to some degree noise may challenge some people but I am sure areas of the West Comms are just as noisy as downtown. I am guessing with construction traffic and all those new residents, that parts of Bear Mountain are quite noisy during the day. At night pretty much all of Vic is quiet.

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#31 G-Man

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 12:50 PM

It is an interesting point though that NMP raises and I think it is key to the problem.


See, my main question is, why consider it a problem at all? Is it totally unacceptable simply to acept that different living environments are suitable for different categories, and classify downtown as not the best fit for families with smallish kids? I mean, why the need to make everything universal?


Well some will see it as a problem and some won't. Suburbia as it is now constructed is a problem as it forces the excessive use of cars. But this is just one side of course. There can be better design of suburban areas to improve on this one point.

Returning to downtown I intend to stay living witin walking distance of work no matter how many children I have. I think it is important that my children live in the core.

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#32 Icebergalley

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 01:03 PM

Much of Europe's selection of digs are in high-density urban areas. People learn to live with noise, with the rush of an urban area and free of private frontyard/backyard space. It's just a matter of adapting.


IMO density and noise and hustle and bustle are not synonymous with a poor place to live...


Yes, an urban resident has to get accustomed to the hustle and bustle of a Vibrant Victoria....

But, I'm sure that doesn't mean that one has to be subjected to excessive and damaging noise and other health destroying effects...

There is actually an enormous difference in the noise and bustle factor when one walks less than a couple of blocks away from Cook Street Village area into Fairfield... or when on a holiday weekend of Sunday when the busses start up later in the AM.. I'm sure that people can perceive the difference, but the busy side is not an environmentally unhealthy place to live...

One of the things that surprises me is that I never hear reports of sound mitigating glass being added to a residential project that is close to a busy street.. For instance the reno (Large the developer) at Bay and Quadra.. intuitively, I would think that the new residents would need sound protection on at least one street side..

I've been told that in the Selkirk, the layout provided for all the light industrial and office buildings to protect the residential side..

I've see roadside noise barriers being installed near busy intersections in suburban development in other jurisdictions but not here.. ??

What's done here? to ensure that unhealthy environments are not being created?

#33 Mike K.

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 01:19 PM


Much of Europe's selection of digs are in high-density urban areas. People learn to live with noise, with the rush of an urban area and free of private frontyard/backyard space. It's just a matter of adapting.


IMO density and noise and hustle and bustle are not synonymous with a poor place to live...


Definitely not. But in my experience residents from suburbia complain about sirens and night-time street noise that they wouldn't hear as regularly in noise-sheltered suburban communities.

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#34 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:14 PM

"Does the average family want to live downtown?"

Show me an average family -- dig deep enough and the "average" might end up looking as unique as the Humboldt Valley unicorns. I'm part of a pretty average family, and ok, we're not right downtown, but yeah, amazingly enough, we like being within walking distance of City Hall and Central Library and lower Fort Street. We don't live in an apartment, granted, but there are actually several families who do live in apartments (rentals, not condos) across the street and up the street. (Oh, and down the street, come to think of it, in one of those 60s/70s stucco 3-storey apartment buildings.) And we have a whole clutch of babies to toddlers to pre-teens living within a block of us -- it's actually really weird, come to think of it: there is an unusually high number in my immediate neighbourhood! Aside from the renters, these families aren't people who moved here in the past, say, 3 years (actually, correction: we just had another family with 2 young girls buy a SFH up the street, within spitting distance of Fort ...but I think they're Albertans! <jk>). I think people really like living this close to d/t, it's just that for most of them it's totally out of reach now (except for the rentals).

Where I used to live, I nearly died when we "had" to move to the suburbs because a pretty roomy old house in an ex-industrial satellite town was cheaper than a tiny little condo in the core. I hated being in the suburbs and would have opted for the downtown condo if we had found something a little bigger and not a whole whack more expensive than a house in the 'burbs.

Why might parents choose city core areas to raise their kids? Well, based on the immediate field research involving my own teens, that age group seems to be better off in cities than in suburbs, because they can be much more independent. In a suburb, you need mom to drive you to your friend's house, especially if you also have a swim meet or a music lesson to get to right after, whereas in the city it's easy to ride your bike or hop on the bus. The swim club is at the downtown Y, the music lesson is a couple of blocks away from that. The kid can even walk to everything.

What about younger children? I read somewhere that small kids are more frequently injured or killed by cars in the suburbs (especially cul-de-sacs), because the suburbs give the parents this false sense of safety, which they wouldn't develop in the big bad dangerous city. Well, and maybe the more open roads in 'burbs give drivers a greater sense of entitlement to speed and zoom, too: the greater density of a city has the effect of slowing people down.

Last (but not least), if Victoria were to develop more extensive cultural offerings (art gallery/ museum, a residents' rate for the RBCM, perhaps, and more variety in its collections, and if we had a downtown secondary education campus, and if the library did more cultural programming, with writers and exhibitions -- although some of this is being met by CAC and galleries like 16 1/2 or On Canvas, which has a "Teens Art Show" on right now), this city, too, would entice families to live in the core, because you can then use the whole city for enriching the lives of your children. (As it happens, I keep up on all sorts of loopy material, and just today read [url=http://www.homeeducator.com/Newsletter/feature6.html:e643e]Homeschooling in New York City[/url:e643e], which describes a Brooklyn family of 5 living in a tiny apartment, which they won't trade for something bigger outside the City, b/c NY is their classroom.)

Re. the last point & cultural offerings: I think G-Man might well be on to something when he suggests that the little condos intended for singles or couples might have a kind of "setting the stage" effect, in terms of building up the population base again, which in turn will bring about more of what attracts people to the core, and so forth.

Well, here's hoping, anyway...
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#35 Icebergalley

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:37 PM


Much of Europe's selection of digs are in high-density urban areas. People learn to live with noise, with the rush of an urban area and free of private frontyard/backyard space. It's just a matter of adapting.


IMO density and noise and hustle and bustle are not synonymous with a poor place to live...


Definitely not. But in my experience residents from suburbia complain about sirens and night-time street noise that they wouldn't hear as regularly in noise-sheltered suburban communities.


Thanks for bringing up the siren's thing..

It's one of the few bits of "noise" that I have found unique to Victoria after having lived in or near downtown in a # of small cities, as well as growing up downtown (no, I didn't live over the store but some of my friends did and I delivered the evening newspaper to many second story apartments)

I also note that it was one of the negative comments from a "tourist" writing in the letters to one of the local papers...

And, in my opinion, it's one of those things that can be changed by a "fiat" of the City Manager...

Next.. a theme about the excessive amounts of uncontrolled light pollution?

#36 m0nkyman

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:47 PM

Thanks for bringing up the siren's thing..

It's one of the few bits of "noise" that I have found unique to Victoria after having lived in or near downtown in a # of small cities, as well as growing up downtown (no, I didn't live over the store but some of my friends did and I delivered the evening newspaper to many second story apartments)


Moving from downtown Ottawa to Victoria, and now living downtown in Edmonton, I am still boggled at the way that Victoria police seem to use their siren the way some people use their seatbelts.....

#37 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:51 PM

Re. sirens: absolutely right, Icebergalley & m0nkyman. I've never lived anywhere in my life where the friggin' sirens are going all the time for every little thing, the way they do here. It's insane. Someone trips on the street and the response? Howling sirens for 3 kilometres, by cops, firefighters, and ambulances. It is just nuts.

...I am still boggled at the way that Victoria police seem to use their siren the way some people use their seatbelts.....

That's hilarious, and soooo true.
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#38 Icebergalley

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 09:55 PM


Thanks for bringing up the siren's thing..

It's one of the few bits of "noise" that I have found unique to Victoria after having lived in or near downtown in a # of small cities, as well as growing up downtown (no, I didn't live over the store but some of my friends did and I delivered the evening newspaper to many second story apartments)


Moving from downtown Ottawa to Victoria, and now living downtown in Edmonton, I am still boggled at the way that Victoria police seem to use their siren the way some people use their seatbelts.....


It's not just the police... it's all the emergency services here.. police, ambulance, fire service...

and, after seeing an onboard notebook computer (just like the police) in a City of Victoria By-law enforcement truck parked at an expired meter by City Hall a week or so ago, I wonder if it may also have a "klaxon" on board..

#39 Icebergalley

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:00 PM

BTW...

One of the sounds that I like are the ship's horns..

Tugs... Clippers.. The Coho all year round... and then there are the cruise ships...

But, I miss the fog horns..

#40 aastra

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Posted 05 February 2007 - 10:21 PM

Are you guys actually suggesting that Victoria cops are racing to non-emergency calls at 100 miles per hour?? That's a heck of an allegation. Granted, there have been some infamous incidents of cops speeding inappropriately in pursuit of stolen cars and such (one such incident culminating in a tragic fatal accident at Blanshard and Fort, and I believe two cops also collided one time at Fisgard and Douglas in response to something that probably didn't require such careless haste). But then again, has anybody who's ever had cause to call the cops in Victoria felt that the cops responded in haste? Heck, has anybody who's ever had cause to call the cops in Victoria felt that the cops responded...period??

If they're rushing around, it sure isn't in response to calls made by my family and people we know. I think the main reason sirens can be heard from all over town is simply because the core is small and relatively flat. The further you get from downtown, the less often you hear sirens. Folks from Gordon Head don't know what I mean when I call Victoria the city of sirens.

There is a perception that downtown is not for families. Why? And if downtown is not for families what about the surrounding neighbourhoods.


In my experience it's not unusual for suburban Victorians to shudder at the prospect of living in the central neighbourhoods. Someone once told me to my face that it was "wrong" to try to raise a family in Victoria. The crime, the traffic, the misconceptions...

These people have no problem letting their kids ride bicycles along an insanely busy street (or highway) on which people routinely shatter the speed limits with reckless abandon, and yet a quiet leafy street in Victoria proper sends a chill up their spines. I'll never understand it.

I think a lot of people don't really know what they fear.

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