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Greece and the EU


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#1 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:47 PM

Down to the wire here.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:56 PM

EDIT:  OK, banks are closed for a week.  Yikes.  When and if they re-open, Greeks might have zero money.

 

 
 

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#3 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:21 PM

Banks are expected to be closed all next week, and there will be a daily €60 ($97) limit on cash withdrawals from cash machines, which will reopen on Tuesday. Capital controls are likely to last for many months at least.

 

http://www.stuff.co....atm-withdrawals


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#4 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:22 PM

http://business.fina...ect-their-money

 

With faith in Greece’s banks at an all-time low, Greeks are rushing to park their money into an unlikely investment.

 

Cars sales rose across the board in Greece during the first quarter, particularly among luxury automakers, suggesting Greeks are pulling out their deposits from banks and looking for alternate ways to protect their money. It is reminiscent of what happened in Argentina earlier this decade when savers there cashed in their savings and bought cars as a way to protect their money against inflation.

 

While cars have never made great investments, there is a fear among many Greeks that the country’s banks could fail if the government is not able to strike a deal with its creditors.

 


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#5 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:31 PM

They are going to try to pull off a referendum this Sunday, in a country that has not had one in 41 years.  Not sure how that will go.  And not sure how the public will vote (the government wants them to vote NO to the EU-demanded austerity).  Right now all I hear is that they (the public and the government) are all blaming Germany, and blaming them going back to WW2.

 

It kind of surprises me to hear that even some lined up at ATMs today said they were not taking all their money out, just a week's worth.  In a worst-case scenario, the Greeks never use the Euro again after today and whatever they replace it with this month is sure to be worth way less than the Euro,  I would have pulled all my money out a week or two back, the Euro in cash will still have strength after this (Greece is only 3% of the EU economy).


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#6 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:38 PM

In Asian trading the Euro is off 2-3%.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#7 Szeven

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 06:49 PM

The euro is down 1.4% vs usd right now. US stock futures are also down 1.4%. Should be an interesting week.

#8 spanky123

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:43 AM

They are going to try to pull off a referendum this Sunday, in a country that has not had one in 41 years.  Not sure how that will go.  And not sure how the public will vote (the government wants them to vote NO to the EU-demanded austerity).  Right now all I hear is that they (the public and the government) are all blaming Germany, and blaming them going back to WW2.

 

It kind of surprises me to hear that even some lined up at ATMs today said they were not taking all their money out, just a week's worth.  In a worst-case scenario, the Greeks never use the Euro again after today and whatever they replace it with this month is sure to be worth way less than the Euro,  I would have pulled all my money out a week or two back, the Euro in cash will still have strength after this (Greece is only 3% of the EU economy).

 

My guess is that they vote it down and suffer the consequences. Not the rational response but if you feel that you have already been marginalized then many people just start swinging and hope that they can take down as many others with them as possible.



#9 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 06:48 AM

You might be right.  But what picture is being painted if they vote NO?  The government says they will go into talks stronger as the rest of the EU will not want them to leave.  I'm not sure that's the case.

 

Them leaving, and then suffering serious losses in wealth would send a strong signal to Italy, France, Spain and Portugal that they might be next.

 

How would you feel being in Greece today, you can only get $81 out of your own bank account?  This week, thousands of Greeks were planning on paying school tuition, taking possession of a new home or car, buying car insurance, going on holiday.  This week, that's all been cancelled.  Really, the entire economy of the country has been cancelled this week.

 

That's third-world style.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#10 Mike K.

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:22 AM

The wealthy EU nations and corporations will now buy Greek assets for pennies on the dollar. The EU wasn't setup to benefit Europeans, it was setup to benefit European powerhouses.

 

Talk to Europeans about the EU and you'll get a good sense of how messed up the situation is, everything from migration of labour from poor countries to wealthier countries (undercutting local labour) to wealthy countries extending their control over the assets of the poorer countries (strangling local competition or bids for assets), and so on. It's vicious any way you slice it and much of Europe is waking up to the very real possibility of the whole thing collapsing.


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#11 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:26 AM

The wealthy EU nations and corporations will now buy Greek assets for pennies on the dollar. The EU wasn't setup to benefit Europeans, it was setup to benefit European powerhouses.

 

Talk to Europeans about the EU and you'll get a good sense of how messed up the situation is, everything from migration of labour from poor countries to wealthier countries (undercutting local labour) to wealthy countries extending their control over the assets of the poorer countries (strangling local competition or bids for assets), and so on. It's vicious any way you slice it and much of Europe is waking up to the very real possibility of the whole thing collapsing.

 

Talk to almost anyone (anywhere, not just Europe) about economics and you'll see how little they know.  

 

The EU was the only hope for countries like Greece that wildly outspend their income.  It comes to an end when either your own youth can pay into it (they can't, youth unemployment in Greece is 50%) or others will not bail you out (that's EU pulling the plug).  Add to that an already corrupt economy where everyone goes out of their way to avoid tax with cash deals and chronic, systematic underreporting of income, and you have the first basket-case in Europe to fall.

 

That's the issue here, nothing else.  There is no grand conspiracy by power brokers outside of Greece.  It has the crappiest economy, brought on by themselves, it falls first.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#12 Mike K.

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:34 AM

So why take it in? Why put it through the additional expense and competition of a continental marketplace?

 

Places like Greece are in trouble because youth are migrating out of the country to find employment elsewhere. Businesses, producers, manufacturers, they're bailing and leaving behind aging populations that produce nothing, consumer very little consumer goods while requiring increasing social services.

 

Greece isn't a basket case, their way of doing business and their way of existing simply isn't compatible with the way northern European nations work. There's a reason why anyone who goes to Mexico quickly learns what Mexican time means as they wait for that little bodega to open.


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#13 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:37 AM

So why take it in? Why put it through the additional expense and competition of a continental marketplace?

 

Well, there are lots of advantages on both sides when you enact measures that promote free trade, like Europe does.  Greece has done very well in tourism etc. and no doubt in many exports.  You think protectionism is good for economy?  Protect yourself from the continental marketplace?


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#14 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:39 AM

Places like Greece are in trouble because youth are migrating out of the country to find employment elsewhere. Businesses, producers, manufacturers, they're bailing and leaving behind aging populations that produce nothing, consumer very little consumer goods while requiring increasing social services.

 

Greece isn't a basket case, their way of doing business and their way of existing simply isn't compatible with the way northern European nations work. There's a reason why anyone who goes to Mexico quickly learns what Mexican time means as they wait for that little bodega to open.

 

That's all fair to say.  I'm afraid that today's generation will have to accept that their, and their children's economy and standard of living, will not be as good as their parents.  That's hard to take for some, that know nothing other than better economy, better living standards year over year.  But that was all bought on credit, and now the cheap and free credit is over.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#15 Mike K.

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:46 AM

Economic chaos is far easier to wage than war.


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#16 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:57 AM

Economic chaos is far easier to wage than war.

 

Maybe, but are you saying that others are controlling Greece's fate?  It is not of their own doing? 

 

Even on a stiflingly hot summer's day, the Athens underground is a pleasure. It is air-conditioned, with plasma screens to entertain passengers relaxing in cool, cavernous departure halls - and the trains even run on time.

 

There is another bonus for users of this state-of-the-art rapid transport system: it is, in effect, free for the five million people of the Greek capital.

 

With no barriers to prevent free entry or exit to this impressive tube network, the good citizens of Athens are instead asked to 'validate' their tickets at honesty machines before boarding. Few bother.

 

 

 

Indeed, as well as not paying for their metro tickets, the people of Greece barely paid a penny of the underground’s £1.5 billion cost — a ‘sweetener’ from Brussels (and, therefore, the UK taxpayer) to help the country put on an impressive 2004 Olympics free of the city’s notorious traffic jams.

 

The transport perks are not confined to the customers. Incredibly, the average salary on Greece’s railways is £60,000, which includes cleaners and track workers - treble the earnings of the average private sector employee here.

 

The overground rail network is as big a racket as the EU-funded underground. While its annual income is only £80 million from ticket sales, the wage bill is more than £500m a year — prompting one Greek politician to famously remark that it would be cheaper to put all the commuters into private taxis.

 

 

 

Ridiculously, Greek pastry chefs, radio announcers, hairdressers and masseurs in steam baths are among more than 600 professions allowed to retire at 50 (with a state pension of 95 per cent of their last working year’s earnings) — on account of the ‘arduous and perilous’ nature of their work.

 

This week, it was reported that every family in Britain could face a £14,000 bill to pay for Greece’s self-inflicted financial crisis. Such fears were denied yesterday after Brussels voted a massive new £100bn rescue package which, it insisted, would not need a contribution from Britain.

 

 

 

Along street after street of opulent mansions and villas, surrounded by high walls and with their own pools, most of the millionaires living here are, officially, virtually paupers.

 

How so? Simple: they are allowed to state their own earnings for tax purposes, figures which are rarely challenged. And rich Greeks take full advantage.

 

Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia.

 

Yet studies have shown that more than 60,000 Greek homes each have investments worth more than £1m, let alone unknown quantities in overseas banks, prompting one economist to describe Greece as a ‘poor country full of rich people’.

 

 

 

Manipulating a corrupt tax system, many of the residents simply say that they earn below the basic tax threshold of around £10,000 a year, even though they own boats, second homes on Greek islands and properties overseas.

 

And, should the taxman rumble this common ruse, it can be dealt with using a ‘fakelaki’ — an envelope stuffed with cash. There is even a semi-official rate for bribes: passing a false tax return requires a payment of up to 10,000 euros (the average Greek family is reckoned to pay out £2,000 a year in fakelaki.)

 

http://www.dailymail...lous-waste.html
 


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#17 Mike K.

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:35 AM

A lot of that reminds me of our neck of the woods.

 

The EU's purpose is to enact northern European practices continent wide. 20 years ago nobody cared that the Greek government was corrupt. Now the entire EU is fretting over how Greece chooses to collect it's taxes. Of course the people who created this problem in the first place will now, surprise surprise, offer a solution.

 

When you're down on the ground and aren't seeing the situation through the lens of mainstream media, charts, figures and political speeches, you get a sense for what is really happening.


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#18 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:39 AM

The EU's purpose is to enact northern European practices continent wide. 20 years ago nobody cared that the Greek government was corrupt. Now the entire EU is fretting over how Greece chooses to collect it's taxes. Of course the people who created this problem in the first place will now, surprise surprise, offer a solution.

 

And nobody would care today today, except for the fact that the EU has given money to Greece to help keep it solvent.  And it wants some return on that money, and the return will never happen if reforms are not taken.  For example, the E1.xB that Greece owes tomorrow is not going to be paid.


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#19 jonny

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 09:09 AM

A lot of that reminds me of our neck of the woods.

 

How so?

 

When you're down on the ground and aren't seeing the situation through the lens of mainstream media, charts, figures and political speeches, you get a sense for what is really happening.

 

What's actually happening, Mike?

 

_____________

Greece should have never been let in the Eurozone in the first place. It's a notoriously corrupt country. Bribes, widespread tax evasion, excessive bureaucracy and bloated social policies. Nobody trusts Greek financial statements. A contract in Greece is almost worthless. Each bailout has only made the situation in Greece worse.

 

Let them fail. Let them default. It won't be that big of a deal. It'd be like Georgia defaulting. The rest of North America would be fine. If they default it will make for a great buying opportunity for people like myself!


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#20 LJ

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:42 PM

Mr. Putin will offer them a solution to their woes, he has been waiting for this day for a long time.


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