1947 replies to this topic

[aastra]

I had friends up from Seattle who thought it was wonderful, and how lucky we were to have such a nice pool so close to our home...

I've had people from other parts of Canada tell me this as well. It seems funny because many Victorians don't think very highly of the Crystal.

If a new pool is built, I'd suggest that it isn't necessary for the city of Victoria to have a large 50M lane pool. I'm assuming that it's more expensive to operate such a big, unified pool than it would be to operate maybe a 6-lane 25M pool and a separate family pool. By the way, isn't that how Panorama and Esquimalt are configured now after their renovations? Would that not be good enough for Victoria?

Are the meets that they get in the Crystal really huge cash cows or something? If not, then Victoria can probably do with having just one 50M lane pool (the Commonwealth pool, I mean). There are other 8-lane 25M pools at UVic and at Oak Bay Rec and Juan de Fuca Rec, right? Might not a smaller lane pool suffice in the city proper?

There's no need for diving towers/pools at the Crystal. Save money there.

I just keep coming back to the $60 million price tag. That would have to end up being one of the most outstanding community recreation centres anywhere. Are they planning for an indoor sports field similar to the converted curling surface at Oak Bay Rec? An ice rink? Neighbourhood library branch? Squash courts? If not, then why so expensive??

And why not take advantage of this project to maybe build some community housing or something on that site, too? There's a lot of empty space, the way the pool complex is configured now. It's set back a long way from Quadra Street and from the side street, too. And there's a lot of space on the south side of the building.

Edit: and as per martini's post, what about the future of the YMCA site? Wasn't there talk about moving the Y to the Crystal's site? Did I imagine that? Could not some sort of deal could be made that allows for redevelopment of the Y site, thus saving taxpayers a lot of money?

[martini]

The simplest choice would be to catch the #11 and get to Oak Bay rec on one bus. The other option is to catch the #8 and transfer to the #26. Both options drop you off at either pool. To get to the Crystal you would catch the #11 and the #6, or walk from Douglas to Quadra and Bay if you don't want to transfer.

If I look up the schedules to access any of these other facilities...I'm looking a minimum 20-25 min. ride, and the possibility of transferring.

Not to mention the cost differences. Crystal pool has the cheapest drop-in rates compared to others.

I know this from experience is why I brought it up.
I think it's important to know who the clientele are and how this would affect them.

[Mike K.]

The difference of only minutes in travel times from your home to Crystal and the other two facilities just reiterates the proximity of other facilities. We're literally talking minutes, not half hours.

As for rates I wholeheartedly agree with you. But when the new Crystal is built I wouldn't count on its rates being what they are today and certainly wouldn't discount them being the highest in the region.

Like aastra says, why the $58-million? What on earth is escalating costs to such an astronomical extent? I don't think anyone would balk at the thought of a $20-million rec facility serving the City of Victoria but when we're talking about an amount nearly thrice that...

[Bingo]

With all the money poured into the original Crystal Pool building to totally redo the roof and other upgrades, why not put the pool back?

[martini]

The difference of only minutes in travel times from your home to Crystal and the other two facilities just reiterates the proximity of other facilities. We're literally talking minutes, not half hours.

As for rates I wholeheartedly agree with you. But when the new Crystal is built I wouldn't count on its rates being what they are today and certainly wouldn't discount them being the highest in the region.

Like aastra says, why the $58-million? What on earth is escalating costs to such an astronomical extent? I don't think anyone would balk at the thought of a $20-million rec facility serving the City of Victoria but when we're talking about an amount nearly thrice that...

Ok I can accept that pragmatic view.

I don't get the $58 million either.

Both Golf River and Campbell River have very nice new facilities. I wonder what they cost.

[aastra]

$16 million for a controversial new aquatic centre in suburban Moncton, NB:
http://forum.skyscra...124750&page=281

...a project that fuelled bitter debate over transparency at city hall and became a key issue in last year's municipal election...

...critics questioned the tendering of contracts and whether the money would have been better spent on other more pressing matters or paying down the city's mounting debt...

Pictures:
http://www.dieppe.ca/aqua_pictures.cfm

****

After searching the web to see what a $60 million aquatic centre looks like, I'm thinking Victorians should be expecting a hell of a lot for that kind of money. As far as I can determine, the Long Bridge Aquatic Centre that's currently under construction in Virginia is a ~$50 million facility:
http://www.arlington...s/file81848.pdf
http://www.arlington...s/file81847.pdf


****

Or, if you really want to dream, you can imagine an architectural statement like the Ian Thorpe Aquatic Centre:
http://swimmingpools...us-complex.html

The Centre is a tribute to one of Australia's most successful athletes and is the last public building designed by the world renowned architect Harry Seidler.

The state of the art centre has a wave-shaped roof and includes an Olympic-size heated pool, leisure pool, program pool, spa, sauna and steam room, café and fitness centre.

"Apart from being an extraordinarily beautiful building - full of natural light - it is also environmentally conscious. The roof vents open automatically for natural ventilation, rainwater is collected to flush toilets and feed the sprinkler system, and the lighting system is designed to minimise wastage.

"This complex is the last great work of one of Australia's most renowned architects. I think it does him proud, and I think it does this community proud."

• 8 lane heated 50 metre pool
• heated leisure pool with spa
• heated program pool
• sauna and steam room
• café with internal and external seating
• fitness centre including gymnasium
• multipurpose room
• ‘Spin’ Cycling room
• car parking for 99 vehicles

This iconic $40 million facility, housed in a distinctive wave-form building, was named in honour of five times Gold Medal winning Olympic Champion Ian Thorpe.

[G-Man]

I don't disagree that the cost is too high and that remediation should be considered first. but we should have a rec centre in with a pool like Crystal. Vancouver Parks and Rec has 1 swimming pool for every 64k people. And that is just counting their indoor pools. 1 for 80k seems reasonable.

Was there yesterday morning and it was packed.

[Mike K.]

But should we be really thinking in silos? Municipal borders don't mean much when you're talking about facilities that should serve a regional purpose.

Currently between Esquimalt, OB and Victoria we have three pools, or roughly 1 pool for every 37,000 people. Without the Crystal we'll still be well below Vancouver's 64,000 residents-to-pools ratio with 56k (using 80k + 32k). If we expand the population and facilities to the entire CRD, minus the Crystal and UVic pool, that gives us a ratio of 60,000 if we base our population on 360k.

Playing devil's advocate here.

Both Golf River and Campbell River have very nice new facilities. I wonder what they cost.

Yeah, and I'm curious what Esquimalt's new rec centre cost. That's a very nice facility.

[aastra]

Killarney Pool: $9.2 million?
http://hcma.ca/killa...ty-pool/?ref=16
http://athleticbusin...ect.aspx?id=128

Hillcrest Aquatic Centre (converted Vancouver 2010 venue, largest aquatic centre in Vancouver): $35 million for brand new aquatics portion?
http://hcma.ca/percy...entre-2/?ref=16

West Vancouver Aquatic Centre refurbishment: $7.5 million?
http://www.naturally...-Case-Study.pdf
http://www.architect...an_gallery.html

Esquimalt Recreation Centre Renovation/Addition: $8.1 million? $7.3 million?
http://www.dectron.c...tion_Center.pdf
http://www.durwest.c...cts.php?catid=3

Servicing a regional market
While the arena and curling rink both operate at acceptable levels of utilization (see chart),
a review of where the participants actually live indicates that only 25% are Esquimalt
residents. This is not surprising; the facility was designed to serve a regional market, and
is in an urban area where people buy services where it is convenient to them rather than in
the municipality that they live.

www.esquimalt.ca/files/PDF/Municipal_Hall/2004-2013ParksRecStrategicPlan.pdf#page=24

[Mike K.]

So if the City blows its pockets with a $60-million facility, what will the future hold for facilities like the Vic West Y?

[aastra]

Check it out:

Saanich Commonwealth Place, Saanich, BC
(Project Managers)
World class aquatic competition facilities for the 1994 Commonwealth Games combined with a major regional recreational facility for the Municipality of Saanich. Upon completion, the 132,000 square foot steel and concrete structure was the world's most advanced aquatic competition facility. The structure contains 3 pools and training facilities. In addition to the leisure portion the project also contains a library, restaurant, multipurpose rooms, gymnasium, aerobics and weight lifting rooms. Durwest was engaged as Project Managers for the Commonwealth Pool during the conceptual phase of the project, to report directly to the Project Building Committee for schedule, cost control, planning, municipal approval, design and construction advice. Durwest linked the design team with the construction industry in respect to labour conditions, market trends, product viability and availability; Saanich BC 1991-1993; Approximate project value $22,000,000.

http://www.durwest.c...cts.php?catid=3

[aastra]

I think a recreation centre/pool is a necessity in the city, but I don't think there's a need for the city's facility to be a top notch aquatic centre along the lines of the Commonwealth Games facility (again, unless I'm misunderstanding just how much money swim clubs and swim competitions can bring in).

A pleasant/modern community pool/fitness centre, as illustrated by those examples above, should be more than good enough (in my opinion).

[aastra]

And I just don't understand how Victoria can be talking $58 million when Hillcrest was significantly less than that.

Apparently Hillcrest was originally budgeted at $20 million, then an additional $10 million was allocated, and then it ended up coming in at ~$35 million.

[aastra]

The case for/against 50M pools:

If HRM extends the lifespan beyond 10 years for Centennial Pool the rationale for approving a 50 metre pool for MLC or elsewhere at this time is diminished. Based upon Canadian population statistics and the number and location of community accessible 50 metre pools, Halifax is already well served. Many large urban regions in the country have one 50 metre pool per 500,000 of population. Thereby HRM should not consider operating two community based 50 metre pools at the same time.

50 meter pools across Canada consistently lose money. The multi-dimensional facilities that have the capacity to generate revenue from a variety of sources perform better than those with smaller alternate amenity spaces designed to attract on-going public utilization. Those facilities that included large fitness centres
always had greater capability of reducing the subsidization required to operate the aquatic complex.

Saanich Commonwealth Place receives financial support from a variety of sources including self generated revenue, tax supported grants, Commonwealth Games
legacy reserves and grants; in 2006 self generated revenue totaled $3.339 million while other forms of revenues and recoveries (including tax support) totaled $2.509 million. Expenditures for Saanich totaled $5.875 million.

The distinctive differences between operating a 25 metre pool and a 50 metre pool for MLC:
• Greater responsibility to appropriately schedule and maximize use of the pools.
• Increased sport presence within the facility; varying levels of athletes.
• A Regional orientation versus a district orientation – this will effect the entire facility
• Additional staffing resources required
• Additional operating subsidization required.
• More hosting opportunities and challenges
• More diversity of activity and participants – easier to handle multiple demands for space

http://www.gov.ns.ca...olsSynopsis.pdf

[aastra]

Conclusion: If the cost is so high because they're planning to build a new 50M pool then they're crazy. The city of Victoria doesn't need to be operating a 50M pool. If they're not planning to build a new 50M pool then the cost would seem to make no sense. They should be able to build a perfectly fine facility (the best community facility in all of Victoria, if not all of BC) for significantly less than $60 million.

Put it another way: they could build three of those Dieppe, NB community centres for the amount of money that they're talking (and still have $10 million left over). One at Central Park, one in James Bay, one in Burnside or maybe Vic West...


pictures from http://www.dieppe.ca/aqua_pictures.cfm

[Rob Randall]

Check it out:

[Saanich Commonwealth Place] Saanich BC 1991-1993; Approximate project value $22,000,000.
http://www.durwest.c...cts.php?catid=3

According to the Bank of Canada's inflation calculator, that equates to $32 million today, although that doesn't accurately take into account changes in the costs of industrial labour and materials.

Chris Coleman was on the radio talking about the challenges which will have to be addressed including "co-location" of other groups, for example, Victoria Silver Threads have been operating out of temporary quarters since their building in Centennial Square was demolished 10 years ago. Should there be an arts component or community learning space? Is this an opportunity to incorporate a new Downtown library branch? They've been patiently waiting in "temporary" quarters, too.

And no, I don't think it's acceptable for the nearest rec centre for Victoria residents to be a 40 minute bus slog away.

[aastra]

I'm assuming that they're using the Commonwealth Games facility as their benchmark, but I don't think it's an appropriate benchmark. Does Greater Victoria really need to have two of the best 50M facilities in Canada, located just a few miles from one another?

Their benchmark should be a spiffy building that contains an 8-lane 25M pool and a family pool with all of the bells and whistles that people expect these days (and a new fitness centre, of course). $25-35 million if Victorians want the best community facility in Greater Victoria, or $35-45 million if Victorians want the best community facility in Canada.

Oakville, ON:

An Olympic style 50-metre poll is a regional type facility and is not recommended as a Town built and operated facility at this time.

Only seven 50 m pools in all Ontario (2 in GTA)

http://www.oakville....resentation.pdf

[jklymak]

Great research Aastra. You should run for city council, since it appears you have done more independent background research in one Sunday than they have done for the last three years.

[aaroninvictoria]

I'm assuming that they're using the Commonwealth Games facility as their benchmark, but I don't think it's an appropriate benchmark. Does Greater Victoria really need to have two of the best 50M facilities in Canada, located just a few miles from one another?

Their benchmark should be a spiffy building that contains an 8-lane 25M pool and a family pool with all of the bells and whistles that people expect these days (and a new fitness centre, of course). $25-35 million if Victorians want the best community facility in Greater Victoria, or $35-45 million if Victorians want the best community facility in Canada.

Oakville, ON:

http://www.oakville....resentation.pdf

This is really awesome information.

My two cents on top of this is that construction costs here on the Island can be substantially higher than in other parts of the country. (20+% in some cases) I am not familiar with commercial costs but I can tell you that residential construction costs are in the 20-30% higher than in other places in Canada...

I have heard that B.C. is an acronym for Bring Cash...

[G-Man]

I think that the days of saying that it costs more on the island have mostly gone away. I mean we don't pay more for groceries or any other commodity. We make cement on the island so I question whether that is still valid.

Anyways I just hope that clsoing Crystal Pool is off anyone's agenda, and instead we proceed with a good refurb or replacement.