1947 replies to this topic

[sdwright.vic]

The new pool really needs to be renamed "Lisa's Folly".

[LJ]

“We are no longer looking at a $69.4 million project, but it may be a better project with the community behind it,” Helps said.

 

https://www.vicnews....sider-new-site/

Have a referendum and see how much the community is behind it then.

[Bingo]

“We are no longer looking at a $69.4 million project, but it may be a better project with the community behind it,” Helps said.

 

 

What's the issue here with the starting bid at $69.4 million.

The bridge started at $63 million so taxpayers are used table napkin figures..."do I hear $110 million from the suit at the back of the hall"?

[On the Level]

^ They have spent $1.6 of the $2m budget for the planning phase for the new pool at Central Park.  Why didn't they investigate first, make an informed decision and then start spending project funds.  $1.6m is going to be paid by taxpayers for nothing in return.

 

 

I think we are a bit behind schedule....

 

[spanky123]

The #1 thing they need to do is confirm that they have money before they even do more planning. Currently council dreams have oversubscribed available funds by about 5x. 

[Victoria Watcher]

 

 

november 2018:  “We are no longer looking at a $69.4 million project, but it may be a better project with the community behind it,” Helps said.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 25 November 2018 - 06:20 PM.

[sebberry]

“We are no longer looking at a $69.4 million project, but it may be a better project with the community behind it,” Helps said.

 

https://www.vicnews....sider-new-site/

 

And now Lisa is an HVAC engineer:

 

“He was very interested in exploring the project. There are a lot of synergies between an arena and swimming pool, and there’s potential to save a lot of energy in sharing the heating and cooling systems,” said Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps, 

 

If it takes a specific measure of thermal units to heat a given space to a specific temperature, it doesn't matter if it's next to the arena or across the road from it, the energy will be the same.

 

 

At least one of them is sane: 

 

adding that his only caveat in their preliminary discussion is that he doesn’t want to lose any net parking.

 

 

I'm still confused about what green space is going to be lost by building it at Central Park.  Do these NPNA folks really not see beyond the construction? 

 

However, feedback from the North Park Neighbourhood Association (NPNA) and the Victoria Downtown Resident’s Association (VDRA) argued for an alternative site at the parking lot behind the Save-On-Foods Memorial Arena after citing a lack of public consultation, and a potential loss of greenspace.

[sebberry]

^ They have spent $1.6 of the $2m budget for the planning phase for the new pool at Central Park.  Why didn't they investigate first, make an informed decision and then start spending project funds.  $1.6m is going to be paid by taxpayers for nothing in return.

 

Someone should frame this in a way our new council could understand:  It's $1.6 million that won't go into continuing to support the addictions of Victoria's most vulnerable.

[spanky123]

 

And now Lisa is an HVAC engineer:

 

If it takes a specific measure of thermal units to heat a given space to a specific temperature, it doesn't matter if it's next to the arena or across the road from it, the energy will be the same.

 

 

And watch the "reducing carbon footprint" argument to be played front and centre.

 

In addition to your comments, the reality is that the new pool was already planned to be built to a very high level of efficiency. There may be some cost savings for the pool by using excess heat from the arena but the arena only has one sheet of ice and it isn't in operation almost 1/2 of the year due to events and the summer season. Any equipment being installed at the pool would still have to be sized for full demand then. By the time you factor in having to interconnect equipment, upgrade the arena infrastructure and dig holes, there is probably no break even business case for the pool. RG may be able to save a little more as they are probably using older equipment but are we to pay for that?

[Mike K.]

The desire to keep pushing on with this project astounds me in light of

• there not being a referendum nor concrete plans for one and
• the YMCA's own plans to build a new facility at the same time and in the general area

 

Who is guiding the unseen hand here? Who's directing traffic to keep going despite no clarity as to what lays ahead? Is this a union-backed initiative?

 

Most importantly, is there a race to have the Crystal's planning wrapped up and ready for government funding ahead of the YMCA getting their ducks in order for their new facility? I mean, government is not blind to two operators simultaneously moving towards construction of brand new fitness centres/pools.

 

Meanwhile Helps & Co. are now wearing a project failure, and the new location will bring its own layers of challenges particularly when we have already heard that the budget will be higher (I can't imagine it will fall anywhere below $90 million up-front as budgeted by the same accountants who brought us the $63 million Johnson Street Bridge).

[spanky123]

 

Who is guiding the unseen hand here? Who's directing traffic to keep going despite no clarity as to what lays ahead? Is this a union-backed initiative?

 

Most importantly, is there a race to have the Crystal's planning wrapped up and ready for government funding ahead of the YMCA getting their ducks in order for their new facility? I mean, government is not blind to two operators simultaneously moving towards construction of brand new fitness centres/pools.

 

Meanwhile Helps & Co. are now wearing a project failure, and the new location will bring its own layers of challenges particularly when we have already heard that the budget will be higher (I can't imagine it will fall anywhere below $90 million up-front as budgeted by the same accountants who brought us the $63 million Johnson Street Bridge).

 

Unfortunately (for us), I think that the primary driver is the desire to have a legacy project well underway by the time the next level of political ambition commences. 

[Mike K.]

From June 14th in the TC:
 

“We don’t want to excite our residents by having an unnecessary referendum, but if we need a referendum to get the project fully funded, we absolutely will.”
 
Meanwhile, Helps rebuffed a suggestion that correspondence from senior government officials indicates the city is skating on thin ice when it comes to funding for the project.
 
In a letter included in this week’s council agenda package, federal Infrastructure Minister Amarjeet Sohi notes that proposed projects must first be prioritized by the province before being submitted to Infrastructure Canada for consideration.

 
That second paragraph is a reference to the following from June 13th:
 

The City of Victoria’s hopes of securing provincial and federal funding for the $70 million Crystal Pool and Wellness Centre Replacement Project remain on thin ice following lukewarm responses from several provincial and federal ministries. - https://victoria.cit...-funding-radar/

 

So here we are, five months later:

 

• The government allocated zero dollars in new funding in 2018.
• The $70 million pool project as envisioned between 2014 and 2018 and dependent on tens of millions of dollars in government funding is cancelled.
• $7 million in already allocated funding ($1 million of which is a corporate donation from Canadian Tire) could evaporate due to missed timelines and the cancelling of the project for which the money was allocated.
• $1.6 million has already been spent on planning for the cancelled project out of a $2 million planning budget.
• The new budget will be higher than $70 million (I would wager that it always was going to be higher).
• There is still no plan for a referendum on whether to proceed with the project, or whether to borrow money for the project, or both.

[Nparker]

Someone elected these brain trusts; I sleep better at night knowing it wasn't me.

[Bingo]

Unfortunately (for us), I think that the primary driver is the desire to have a legacy project well underway by the time the next level of political ambition commences. 

 

A legacy to go along with the lingering bridge project, the lingering bike lanes, the new #1 Fire Hall, the upgrades to the Bay Street Bridge, and the fewer parking spaces all over town.

[Ismo07]

 

And now Lisa is an HVAC engineer:

 

 

 

If it takes a specific measure of thermal units to heat a given space to a specific temperature, it doesn't matter if it's next to the arena or across the road from it, the energy will be the same.

 

 

I don't really know the science behind this but I think you can utilize the heat emitted from the coolers of the rink to heat the pool.  This is an excerpt from a system in Sweden.

 

"

The fact that everything is located in the same place means that the condenser heat from chillers for the ice rink and bandy rink can be used to heat the entire facility – the pool water in the three basins, air, and almost all tap water – in hockey and bandy season. One of the chillers is also used as a heat pump when the bandy rink is not in active mode and heats the domestic hot water, bathing water and the water for heating the premises of the plant.

The heat in the shower water is utilized in a heat exchanger before the water goes into the sewer system and heats so incoming water in a first step. The heating system is also connected to the district heating in Oskarshamn in order to be able to buy the heat if necessary.

The Arena chose to work with as few suppliers as possible. By having one brand for controlling all the technical features they have been relieved from demarcation issues between different systems and this gives the staff a good position to actively operate in an optimal way. Clear screen shots show how the system works. Air quality, temperature, water quality, recycling capacity, pressure and water levels are measured continuously. When the operator is sitting at the PC, he or she can control and change various parameters. When the operators is not there, they receives an SMS on their mobile phones if something happens that requires action. The system is web-based, which also gives the opportunity for operational monitoring and troubleshooting remotely.

“When we started planning for a new swimming pool, the idea to place it adjacent to the rink early arose. We saw the opportunity to utilize excess heat from the ice production instead of it just cooling off. That way we could save energy and reduce operating costs for the facility. Co-location also meant that we could create an efficient service organization of the entire Arena Oskarshamn. When everything is controlled by a superior system, the staff are in even better position to have a good handle on the different parts of the plant. Currently, we saved about 1 000 000 kWh per year. That means a reduced carbon dioxide emission by more than 600 tons per year! ”

Edited by Ismo07, 26 November 2018 - 10:26 AM.

[G-Man]

I am pleased at least that we are now planning this on the right lot; including the curling rink; strong indication that there will be a new parkade and leaving Central Park alone. Perhaps even enlarge it with the removal of the current pool. I am still concerned with the cost but things are at least moving in the right direction!

[spanky123]

I am pleased at least that we are now planning this on the right lot; including the curling rink; strong indication that there will be a new parkade and leaving Central Park alone. Perhaps even enlarge it with the removal of the current pool. I am still concerned with the cost but things are at least moving in the right direction!

 

Prior to last week, nobody from the City had even spoken with RG about the property and according to Vicnews, nobody has spoken to the Curling Club who owns the building. Apparently the Mayor had a conversation with Graham Lee and voila we have a plan!  

[spanky123]

“When we started planning for a new swimming pool, the idea to place it adjacent to the rink early arose. We saw the opportunity to utilize excess heat from the ice production instead of it just cooling off. That way we could save energy and reduce operating costs for the facility. Co-location also meant that we could create an efficient service organization of the entire Arena Oskarshamn. When everything is controlled by a superior system, the staff are in even better position to have a good handle on the different parts of the plant. Currently, we saved about 1 000 000 kWh per year. That means a reduced carbon dioxide emission by more than 600 tons per year! ”

 

There is no doubt that a properly designed facility that exchanges energy between systems can save money. If we were building a new rink and new pool then why not. The challenge here is that we are already planning to build a very efficient pool system and would then need to somehow link it into the existing and older arena system. How much are we going to save over our already efficient design and how much extra is it going to cost to try and integrate the systems?

[aastra]

 

Perhaps even enlarge it with the removal of the current pool.

 

There was no pool facility in the park before, so the park wouldn't be enlarged by the removal of the pool but rather returned to how it was.

[Bingo]

There is no doubt that a properly designed facility that exchanges energy between systems can save money. If we were building a new rink and new pool then why not. The challenge here is that we are already planning to build a very efficient pool system and would then need to somehow link it into the existing and older arena system. How much are we going to save over our already efficient design and how much extra is it going to cost to try and integrate the systems?

 

I suppose you could also link energy exchanges to include the police station, and while you are at it build a new # 1 Fire Hall on the property and include that as well, and run the whole shebang with a geothermal plant.

THINK LEGACY-THINK $$$$$$$.