70 replies to this topic

[Spy Black]

 

so if there are the two malls at either end of oak st, why not make oak st itself an extension of the malls ...

Because that would involve liaising with the City of Victoria, who, using their current plan to completely block off Richmond St. at the Oak Bay border as an example, demonstrate that the COV is incapable of any sort of legitimate interface with other municipalities in terms of cooperative planning.

The COV could do the same with the south end of Oak Street ... with about the same lack of rationale as they're providing for Richmond St.

 

Saanich would be far better off (for planning purposes) to simply envision a large wall (a la Trumps Mexican wall) along Tolmie Ave. rather than posit any sort of co-managed project with the COV.

The COV Mayor and Council have become the equivalent of the regions local leper, not to be approached, and indeed to be avoided at all costs.

[Victoria Watcher]

why not allow 24 floors at the back of the car lots at oak. the car lot owners would be happy to lose just a few surface spots for that profit potential.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 12 August 2020 - 06:27 AM.

[Spy Black]

why not allow 24 floors at the back of the car lots at oak. the car lot owners would be happy to lose just a few surface spots for that profit potential.

Exactly - rather than try and dictate what it has to look like, just give blanket pre-approval for 24 (or more) stories on the east and west side of Oak street, and along the east and west side of Douglas St ... and then simply let the chips fall where they may.

 

As you note, I'm sure the car dealerships would be very quick to determine how they might maximize the value of their properties with unfettered rights to construct to 24 stories anywhere they wanted to.

 

Heck, the dealerships might even build their car lots into the basements of their developments (which is exactly what the Land Rover/Range Rover/Jaguar dealership partially did).

[Mike K.]

When I think of everything else that has happened in the area in the last <10 years, what they want to do in that area makes a lot more sense now that it has sunk in a bit more. i don't mean that it's no big deal, but not nearly the major change that it might have seemed at first. it's really just a continuation of the process that has already been unfolding and looking at what else they can fix in the area. there has been
- redevelopment of town & country / uptown
- redevelopment of mayfair

- redevelopment of the nigel valley
- douglas st bus lanes & other stuff farther south
- building up the glasgow st neighbourhood

 

For whatever reason Saanich took the path of most resistance here, envisioning a residential hub and a high street on the least likeliest land parcels to transition to such a use given how much investment has taken place in recent years by the industry along there.

 

What Saanich should have done is to have focused this vision on Uptown and further north, to encourage greater density for the triangle bordered by the TCH, Tillicum and Carey. That area is begging for densification and it's already happening at a much faster rate than it is further south in the industrial-dominated area to Tolmie, but it could be happening much, much faster and in a more coordinated fashion than the patchwork developers have been forced to pursue.

[Spy Black]

The original Saanich city centre was Royal Oak (Med Grill is the old Saanich city hall), a location that is still vastly under-developed in terms of densification.

 

Saanich Council seems to have brought their focus southward in terms of where they see development occurring, but realistically, the area between Uptown and Royal Oak is where most of "downtown Saanich" will develop naturally ... certainly as opposed to a couple of already well developed and firmly established blocks between Saanich Rd and Tolmie Ave.

 

Trying to bring development up against the border with Victoria seems a vastly misplaced vision of where a Saanich city centre might be best developed.

[lanforod]

Med Grill used to be city hall? Had no idea!

[lanforod]

I don't think going along Hwy 17 is a good idea, and it's not like Glanford or Douglas are undeveloped. I think a 'downtown' area needs lots of higher density residential around it to support commercial/retail. The strip between the highways makes the most sense when looking at a map and ignoring what's already there. Just needs to be a 100 year plan, not a 15 year one.

[Mike K.]

Saanich is the literal Dallas of our region. Everything is everywhere and there's no one area designated as the focal point because they keep changing where they want that focal point to be.

 

Tell me the Saanich "high street" was not supposed to Quadra at McKenzie at some point. And why can't the high street be Shelbourne between the two malls? And what about Tillicum from Gorge to TCH? That thoroughfare is also lost and devoid of any vision.

[lanforod]

I'm not really convinced Saanich needs a 'high street' or 'downtown' anyways. Would we be even talking about it if Victoria and Saanich were amalgamated?

[aastra]

 

Trying to bring development up against the border with Victoria seems a vastly misplaced vision of where a Saanich city centre might be best developed.

 

I've made the point before, how the same old notions (and jargon) can persist in Victoria across political generations, despite the significant unplanned changes that occur in the meantime. We saw it with the arena saga, we're seeing it with the pool saga...

 

 

"Downtown" Soon at Saanich Line
Daily Colonist
September 30, 1962

Greater Victoria shoppers in a few years' time will call the city-Saanich boundary on Douglas the "downtown" commercial district, a Saanich councillor predicted yesterday.

Coun. Gregory Cook said he thought downtown businesses will move to the fringes of the large Mayfair shopping centre under construction just south of the Saanich boundary at Douglas and Tolmie.

Major Area

Two community planners agreed the mile-long stretch of land east of Douglas between the Town-and-Country shopping centre and the Mayfair shopping centre will become a major commercial area, but felt there was no immediate danger of city merchants suffering because of it.

Edited by aastra, 12 August 2020 - 11:17 AM.

[Mike K.]

I don't think going along Hwy 17 is a good idea, and it's not like Glanford or Douglas are undeveloped. I think a 'downtown' area needs lots of higher density residential around it to support commercial/retail. The strip between the highways makes the most sense when looking at a map and ignoring what's already there. Just needs to be a 100 year plan, not a 15 year one.

 

Developers understand that people want to be in a residential setting if buying into a residential project, not in an industrial setting that may become a residential setting in 50 years.

 

That's why you have the CRD developing its Campus of Care (the last phase of which just completed) along Carey, Abstract is developing a property on Raymond Street at Tillicum, Uptown Place completed off Carey and north of Uptown, and Short Street was developed as the southern edge along a street Uptown fronts onto. There's also density that was built across the street from the triangle's north tip. Again, all within residential areas or within the residential/commercial mix.

 

If there was appetite for 20-storey towers on Oak Street at Cloverdale wouldn't we have already seen something to that effect? But developers know that would be a tough sell.

[Mike K.]

I'm not really convinced Saanich needs a 'high street' or 'downtown' anyways. Would we be even talking about it if Victoria and Saanich were amalgamated?

 

It's got a dozen to choose from already, right? But they decide to pursue another one.

[lanforod]

I think the conversation would make sense if we had a realistic plan/funding for LRT, but that's at least 50 years away, IMO. Build new centers around where stations will go.

 

The rezoning stuff is a good idea though, IMO. Blanket rezone up to 24 storeys where they want higher density and see what happens. Maybe a couple of spots up to 30.

[aastra]

In Victoria we all know how cool the politicians and authorities were about residential development in south downtown. But then -- after a slog of many, many years -- once the process was all but complete, they started taking credit for it. The "official" vision was very different from what actually happened. Also, remember the clumsy idea to redevelop the bowling green? It was as if the CoV just couldn't get its head around what south downtown was turning into. I'd suggest the Telus project is another example of officialdom's perceptive shortcomings, although maybe not quite as blundering as the bowling green idea.

 

The Northern Junk resistance is yet another example. It doesn't jibe with the longstanding vision for wiping out heritage and introducing useless waterfront green space, even though any bozo should be able to see how well the redevelopment would jibe with the successful Janion project right across the way, and Mermaid Wharf/Canoe (which the CoV also didn't understand when first proposed).

 

Methinks a similar thing is happening re: Uptown area. Yet again the authorities aren't really in sync with "realities on the ground." They don't fully understand where the area is going.

[aastra]

 

It's got a dozen to choose from already, right? But they decide to pursue another one.

 

This is what I'm saying. It's like they think it's their job to fight the natural flow of things.

[Victoria Watcher]

the shall we say green people on Saanich council think the transit hub is the Mecca and why they like this place. Fact is transit riders are not the high spending clients that an area needs.

[Mike K.]

You know why the LRT plan failed, at least partially? Because transit wanted all riders to transfer to the train at Uptown. That's the only way they could justify the boondoggle of laying track into downtown Victoria.

 

So instead of coming into downtown via the 30, or 31, or the 70, you'd now have to get off, slog across a transit exchange, and board a train.

[Spy Black]

Med Grill used to be city hall? Had no idea!

For reasons unknown, one of my strongest very early memories of my Dad is he and I driving from our (then) brand spanking new house on Agnes Street to what's now the Med Grill in order to pay the property tax!

https://commons.wiki...,_Canada_01.jpg

Edited by Spy Black, 12 August 2020 - 11:10 AM.

[amor de cosmos]

why not allow 24 floors at the back of the car lots at oak. the car lot owners would be happy to lose just a few surface spots for that profit potential.

 

Exactly - rather than try and dictate what it has to look like, just give blanket pre-approval for 24 (or more) stories on the east and west side of Oak street, and along the east and west side of Douglas St ... and then simply let the chips fall where they may.

this is priceless, didn't you guys see that's almost exactly what the plan says? (well not oak st, but douglas & uptown) here are the minimum & maximum heights they're looking for, and where. however it's not a strict maximum; they would consider buildings up to 24 stories but they would work out how much more a developer would make from the additional height and tax 75% of that. i think they called it a land-lift analysis (p.53/176):

 

they also would like *continuous streetwalls* (who else would like that?) with these heights (p.128/176):

 

 

I'm not really convinced Saanich needs a 'high street' or 'downtown' anyways. Would we be even talking about it if Victoria and Saanich were amalgamated?

 

I would say yes, because the oak st thing is determined by its location connecting mayfair & uptown. I would say the fact that there are two municipalities probably isn't a factor at all.

[aastra]

 

...because the oak st thing is determined by its location connecting mayfair & uptown.

 

That 1962 news story would seem to counter the premise that there's anything particularly organic about this. In 1962 planners were already envisioning changes to the "middle" even when Town & Country and Mayfair were both brand new and considerably smaller & different from their current forms.