70 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

The District of Saanich is planning for the long-term future of the Uptown-Douglas Corridor and wants to hear from you! Public engagement for the Uptown - Douglas Corridor Plan starts this week and runs through June 24th. Check out saanich.ca/udcp for opportunities to get involved. ‪#‎UDCPlan‬

 

The first opportunity to get involved takes place today at Serious Coffee at 3075 Douglas Street.

 

 

 

[Victoria Watcher]

four+ years later here we are.

 

 

 

The plan recommends increasing the maximum numbers of storeys from 12 to 18, and up to 24 in parts of the core, since taller buildings would “prevent urban sprawl” and preserve Saanich’s rural areas. Haynes sees businesses, medical offices and daycare facilities taking up the bottom floors of these buildings and residences on the upper levels.

 

https://www.vicnews....-consideration/

 

 

plan:

 

https://saanich.ca.g...6&meta_id=27113

 

 

 

 

although i'm of course in favour of the plan i'm unsure how it prevents urban sprawl and preserves saanich's rural areas.  if saanich chooses to add little housing anywhere then so be it.  that's how metchosin preserves its rural character.  it's not some type of given that saanich must expand here to prevent it elsewhere.

 

do we need an increase in medical offices?  that stuff is going online at quite a rate.  i also don't think large-scale daycare at expensive premises is a growth thing either.   we might even see a decline in daycare demand as work-at-home increases.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 08 August 2020 - 11:39 AM.

[aastra]

For the umpteenth time I'll note how these sorts of visioning/concept documents take great pains to NOT use visual examples from Victoria itself. Literally, I've seen many more pics of Victoria in the visioning/concept documents from other cities than I've ever seen in Victoria's own documents.

 

Is Victoria a comfortable/green/walkable/human-scale city or isn't it? If it is, then why are Victorians always searching for examples from other places? Glancing through the document, the only example from Vic city that I noticed was Black & White at Cook and Fort.

 

 

Explore opportunities to plant Garry Oak trees in park spaces or feature areas along Oak Street...

 

I give them a point for the oak tree thing (from page 103), but I also wouldn't be surprised if there's no follow-through on it.

 

So what do we think about this next bit? (from page 105)

 

 

Audley Crossing is a new laneway planned to be introduced through the development process. The lane will run between, and parallel to, Oak and Douglas Streets, commencing as an extension of Short Street and connecting all the way to Tolmie Avenue.

Audley Crossing will be designed as a pedestrian-oriented, activated shared street, bringing character while ensuring functionality of the space through the use of reduced speeds, distinctive and varied paving materials, landscaping, lighting and other features. The lane will contribute to making this an attractive and inviting public realm while retaining the shared purpose of service and access.

 

 

Anyway... for a long time I've felt like Oak Street has potential. We'll see what happens.

 

[Victoria Watcher]

not sure anyone will be excited about walking audley lane.

[aastra]

 

not sure anyone will be
excited about walking audley lane.

 

Tinto Rocks were shameless Beatles knock-offs in the early days but I still say some of the melodies were catchy.

[Victoria Watcher]

Key facets of the plan involve making the area more pedestrian friendly, creating a regional transit hub and spurring growth with a mix of compact, multi-unit housing. As well, the plan proposes to retain industrial uses west of the Galloping Goose Regional Trail, expand local employment opportunities and turn Oak Street into a central “high street” with a pedestrian promenade and mixed-use buildings.

 

 

“This is exactly the kind of vision for a vital core of Saanich that is going to yield huge benefits,” Mayor Fred Haynes said in an interview. “I’m hoping that it captures everybody’s imagination. At the same time, there’ll still be opportunities to tweak it.”

 

https://www.timescol...core-1.24183393

 

 

 

i'm skeptical of this whole plan.  when you already have mostly private property in this area how can you force the change along?  it might happen it might not.  so be it.  it would be quite different if they were developing some bare land.  this is just a visioning project with no real way to press or even incentivize the changes they hope for.

 

why would the car dealers leave?  for a multitude of reasons they have stayed put and it would seem quite reasonable not to expect that to change.  several of them have made significant property upgrades signalling they have no intention of leaving.   so what will be the "pedestrian draw" along oak street when most of it fronts car lots?

 

saanich is trying to create "pedestrian activity" at the very same time we've never had so many non-pedestrian options appearing, from netflix to uber eats to nespresso to amazon to online banking and online health services and dating.

 

maybe fred haynes likes to go for walks.  and that's great we have many awesome parks.  but walking along an urban street for fun is not the future.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 August 2020 - 05:37 AM.

[Mike K.]

They’re also investing huge sums into expanding their dealerships.

Oak is interesting in that it ends at its north and south at private property, both of which are malls. It’s also quite hilly and it’s difficult to have a “high” street that people with mobility issues will struggle with.

As for sprawl, it’s never going to end. In fact, demand for suburban and semi-rural land is rapidly rising.

[Victoria Watcher]

yes there is demand for sprawl but limited land does mean its expensive thus that does price some out.

we should be taking aim at the alr. land not farmed in the last 30 years should be excluded.

And what is the point of a bunch of hobby farms in the blenkinsop valley? that could be housing plus more public park. Lots of winners there.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 August 2020 - 08:02 AM.

[Mike K.]

We have virtually unlimited land. What limits the use of that land is politics and access to infrastructure.

So it’s not Saanich deciding to build a few high rises that impacts sprawl, it’s the CRD’s decisions that make it hard for outlying areas to be developed.

[Spy Black]

How does the laneway physically cut through the middle of Suburban Motors main service garage building?

Similarly, how does the laneway get to Roderick St through Bullfrog Transmissions and Chapman Motors structures?

None of this makes any sense in terms of the amount of private property involved. Are they going to expropriate it all simply to build a laneway that nobody will ever use?

 

Speedway Motors just spent millions on their new Porsche facility, as did Land Rover/Jaguar ... they're not going anywhere.

I can see some potential development a block or two to the WEST of Douglas, but Douglas Street itself, between Tolmie and Boleskine/Saanich Rd ... I don't see it (with the possible exception of the actual corner of Boleskine and Douglas).

 

What might change some of the above is if the zoning actually starts at 24 stories, and goes up substantially from there.

Suddenly a hotel like the Red Lion doesn't make a lot of financial sense when you can develop and sell condos on the same site for many, many millions more than a piddly little two story hotel might ever be worth.

 

The area closer to Burnside is another story altogether, and development on a small scale has slowly been happening in that part of North Douglas for years now. But I can't see a 24 story tower butted right up against well established single family dwelling neighbourhoods like those that begin immediately in the vicinity of Balfour St., Irma St. and the like.

[Victoria Watcher]

yes the crd and their containment boundary is the problem. you are right we have no shortage of land.

I also feel would could easily double the population of rural Saanich without any harm. Saving rural Saanich is not all that desirable if the alternative is a tiny bit of added density plus more public parks where private property now stands.

[Victoria Watcher]

^ ^ all perfectly on point, black.

[Spy Black]

yes the crd and their containment boundary is the problem. you are right we have no shortage of land.

I also feel would could easily double the population of rural Saanich without any harm. Saving rural Saanich is not all that desirable if the alternative is a tiny bit of added density plus more public parks where private property now stands.

I agree, and the talk of a massive "rural" Saanich that must be protected is a bit overblown. I was born in Saanich, and have pretty much lived in Saanich all my life ... and a lot (not all, but a lot) of what gets touted as "rural" in Saanich is actually just "distant under developed suburban".

 

You could undertake massive development in Saanich, and not even begin to touch the true rural Saanich environs like the areas around Martindale Valley, Ellk Lake, and Prospect Lake.

 

The tough questions would be the ones that would posit what you do with areas like the Blenkinsop Valley, which I personally have always loved just as it is ... but if developed, would literally add thousands of new homes ... and it would jump to tens of thousands if those new homes weren't all single family dwellings.

[Nparker]

 

distant under developed suburban

Coincidentally  the acronym is DUDS. 

[amor de cosmos]

So what do we think about this next bit? (from page 105)
 
Anyway... for a long time I've felt like Oak Street has potential. We'll see what happens.

looks very similar to the quarters project in edmonton (previously some gravel parking lots east of downtown) and the pathway is the armature:
https://www.edmonton...e-quarters.aspx
 

not sure anyone will be excited about walking audley lane.

how do you know what people will be excited about 30 years from now?

Edited by amor de cosmos, 09 August 2020 - 09:31 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

how do you know what people will be excited about 30 years from now?

 

30 years from now this area will look nothing like the plan envisioned for it.  i know that based on almost all other plans for areas where there is already mostly private property scattered among many owners.

 

and while i do not know what people will enjoy in 30 years i can tell you the population is aging and "walking activity" is on the decrease not increase over the past 30 to 50 years.  no reason to suspect that trend to reverse just because some planners deem it so.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 August 2020 - 09:33 AM.

[aastra]

 

How does the laneway physically cut through the middle of Suburban Motors main service garage building?

Similarly, how does the laneway get to Roderick St through Bullfrog Transmissions and Chapman Motors structures?

None of this makes any sense in terms of the amount of private property involved.

 

For sure, this is why I was asking what we all thought of it. The implied-but-indirect flow across Cloverdale also seems to be a bit goofy.

[kxl]

I can see some potential development a block or two to the WEST of Douglas, but Douglas Street itself, between Tolmie and Boleskine/Saanich Rd ... I don't see it (with the possible exception of the actual corner of Boleskine and Douglas).

There’s a great idea, turn the Galloping Goose into a high street.

[Victoria Watcher]

There’s a great idea, turn the Galloping Goose into a high street.

 

goose is also experiencing lower traffic counts.

 

google worldwide information about "high streets".  all in decline.  how saanich plans to be different - starting one from scratch no less -  in such an odd spot is hard to understand.

 

you can't just wish your way into success on these things no matter what your well-paid consultants say.  for once ask your consultants for contemporaneous examples of success to model this after.  absent of that we should consider this worth less than the paper it's written on.

 

i'm tired of this bul$h%^t visioning that's not based on reality and never comes to pass and wastes taxpayer money every single time.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 09 August 2020 - 04:53 PM.

[Mike K.]

The hills are going to be a problem. I can’t stress that enough.