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#41 AllseeingEye

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 05:15 PM

Someone, somewhere on his watch in the VCDS chain of command has likely been leaking stuff they shouldn't be. Some sources even hinting it was Norman himself which seems quite surprising given his seemingly impeccable military background. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.



#42 spanky123

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 05:34 PM

^ Leaking to who?



#43 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:54 PM

^ Leaking to who?


I know it's hard for all of us to believe but with us in NATO and NORAD, we do have some operational secrets.
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#44 AllseeingEye

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 06:57 PM

Any unauthorized source you care to name...the media, the public, a member of the opposition...who knows? Depends entirely on the information itself.

 

Anyone who has ever served in the military or reserves is well aware that leaking information, particularly if it is sensitive strategic or intelligence info, is career suicide unless you are so authorized. Military Service 101. Its part of your contract with the government and is spelled out in no uncertain terms. 

 

Its really not much different than the private sector. I've worked for many orgs where dismissal is a foregone conclusion - sometimes automatic - depending what information you make public, i.e. without the express consent of the corporation, and/or in what capacity you perform. The higher you are presumably the more access you have to more sensitive information That's why professional communication and marketing people exist - to serve up the information to the public so that it smells like roses even if its a turd.....


Edited by AllseeingEye, 16 January 2017 - 07:02 PM.


#45 AllseeingEye

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:34 AM

I know it's hard for all of us to believe but with us in NATO and NORAD, we do have some operational secrets.

Absolutely; I think the average Canuck on the street would be shocked at the extent of the "secret" information this country is privy to; among other things our participation in the "Five Eyes" intelligence circle (US/UK/Canada/Australia/NZ) in the form of the Communications Security Establishment to name but one. The sheer volume of information held by and in that exclusive "club" is mind numbing.

 

And in spite of the sad sack condition of the RCN today people need to remember for years we were on the cutting edge of anti submarine sonar technology since that was our primary role within NATO, ie to hunt down and kill Soviet submarines. There are plenty o' secrets - both operational and technical - held by Ottawa, rest very assured.


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#46 spanky123

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:49 AM

Any unauthorized source you care to name...the media, the public, a member of the opposition...who knows? Depends entirely on the information itself.

 

Anyone who has ever served in the military or reserves is well aware that leaking information, particularly if it is sensitive strategic or intelligence info, is career suicide unless you are so authorized. Military Service 101. Its part of your contract with the government and is spelled out in no uncertain terms. 

 

Its really not much different than the private sector. I've worked for many orgs where dismissal is a foregone conclusion - sometimes automatic - depending what information you make public, i.e. without the express consent of the corporation, and/or in what capacity you perform. The higher you are presumably the more access you have to more sensitive information That's why professional communication and marketing people exist - to serve up the information to the public so that it smells like roses even if its a turd.....

 

The exception to the above of course is information provided in the role of a whistleblower.

 

http://www.forces.gc...disclosure.page



#47 AllseeingEye

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:59 AM

The exception to the above of course is information provided in the role of a whistleblower.

 

http://www.forces.gc...disclosure.page

We're talking apples and oranges here: you are referring to ethical/financial/sexual misconduct - I am referring specifically to the disclosure of tightly held and confidential military "secrets", force capabilities and/or war fighting strategies which was the thrust of my initial comment re: *possible* reasons for the VCDS's dismissal.

 

As you alluded to it is also entirely possible of course Norman had some choice commentary re: CAF issues with sexual misconduct which did not sit well with the military brass or certain segments of the government, i.e. the MoD.

 

Similarly he may well have 'leaked' matters pertaining to Liberal Defence policy which, as we all know, ranks in importance for the federal Liberal Party somewhere between starting up a Canadian Moon Landing initiative and sending the Donald a bouquet of "Best Wishes in 2017" flowers. We already know for example the Libs are jacking around the NSP which is shaping up to be a dismal failure if its not managed extremely carefully. Its entirely possible, given his apparently staunch military pedigree, that Norman had some choice comments on that subject which would definitely get him into political hot water.....


Edited by AllseeingEye, 17 January 2017 - 09:08 AM.


#48 spanky123

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:03 AM

We're talking apples and oranges here: you are referring to ethical/financial/sexual misconduct - I am referring specifically to the disclosure of tightly held and confidential military "secrets", force capabilities and/or war fighting strategies which was the thrust of my initial comment re: possible reasons for the VCDS's dismissal.

 

I highly doubt that a career military officer from a career military family would be disclosing military secrets to the enemy. Given that the two major files he was working on, cost overruns in procurement and sexual assault and suicides at RMC, would both be politically charged - my guess is that it is one of these two issues and the 'leaking' was to the media or the opposition.


Edited by spanky123, 17 January 2017 - 09:05 AM.


#49 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:22 AM

Hey, high-end career military men have been known to be real odd ones.

 

https://en.wikipedia...iams_(criminal)

 

David Russell Williams (born March 7, 1963) is an English-born Canadian convicted murdererrapist, and former Colonel in the Canadian Forces.   ....  From July 2009 to his arrest in February 2010, he commanded CFB Trenton, a hub for air transport operations in Canada and abroad and the country's largest and busiest military airbase. 

 


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#50 AllseeingEye

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:10 AM

I highly doubt that a career military officer from a career military family would be disclosing military secrets to the enemy. Given that the two major files he was working on, cost overruns in procurement and sexual assault and suicides at RMC, would both be politically charged - my guess is that it is one of these two issues and the 'leaking' was to the media or the opposition.

I assume you are kidding; history is replete with a multitude of examples of "career military men" disclosing secrets to potential adversaries. Right off the top of my head the USN Walker Spy Ring comes immediately to mind and I didn't even have to give that one any thought. And unless you are working in the office of the VCDS you have no way of knowing what else he was responsible for. As Jon Vance himself stated the VCDS is the de facto day to day operational head of the CAF, period, full sentence, stop. As VCDS Norman worked on a plethora of issues well beyond reviewing cost overruns and sexual misconduct cases. They merely represent two of "XXXXX" projects and initiatives he would have direct or indirect responsibility for....



#51 lanforod

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:18 AM

Benedict Arnold comes to mind as well as an extreme example!

#52 spanky123

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:53 AM

Benedict Arnold comes to mind as well as an extreme example!

 

I hardly think Norman is in the same category but hopefully we will see. That is the problem though when the Government tries to cover things up - people speculate. The thing that Vance and Sajjan need to remember is if the leak was to the media or opposition then details will certainly come out.



#53 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 06:30 PM

An alleged leak of information related to the federal government’s troubled shipbuilding plans is behind the removal of the second highest military officer in Canada, sources say.
 
 
Vice Admiral Mark Norman, the vice chief of the defence staff, was temporarily removed from his command by Chief of the Defence Staff Gen. Jon Vance, the Canadian Forces confirmed Monday.
 
 
Sources say the RCMP are involved in an investigation involving Norman and allegations of leaked information.
 
 
The probe, dealing with the alleged release of sensitive information about the navy’s shipbuilding plans, has been ongoing.
 
 
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau declined Tuesday to provide any additional details.

 

 

http://news.national...cer-sources-say


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#54 spanky123

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:27 PM

So far batting 1000

 

So Norman allegedly leaked info on massive cost overruns and delays in procurement that the brass have been trying to cover up.

 

PM's and DM's like their CDS' being loyal and politically inexperienced. Hillier was probably the one exception to that rule. Vance will get to fall on his sword while Sajjan pushes him in front of the bus that Trudeau is driving.

 

What sort of idiot would think that you could keep the lid on a media leak?


Edited by spanky123, 17 January 2017 - 07:29 PM.


#55 AllseeingEye

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:09 PM

As I speculated above it appears he had some unflattering things to say about the NSP; from a career standpoint perhaps not terribly smart then OTOH anyone with even a cursory knowledge of DND affairs has been well aware that the federal Libs have stumbled and bumbled and fumbled the NSP along for well over a year now. If the RCN and CCG are lucky they'll probably wind up with half the projected ships "maybe" within a decade or so.

 

The program is a complete s*** show. There are stories galore about highly paid European (Brit and German) marine engineers onboarded in Halifax only to quit in some cases within weeks due to the incompetence of Canadian project managers and/or federal red tape.

 

According to a close family friend who is a superintendent on the NSP he overheard one of the German's state emphatically that "these (Canadian) idiots don't have a clue what they're doing - none. I might as well go home". So he did.

 

But my favorite story came from a family member in the east who was an electrical supervisor at the Halifax base hired specifically as part of the NSP, only to be laid off within two months - due to lack of work! Huh? Its supposed to be a multi-billion, multi-year program, but I digress.....he told me last summer in preparation for the new naval ships the RCN/DND built a brand new, purpose-built maintenance facility specifically designed to accommodate them....only to discover_upon completion_that the multi-multi million structure was more than 10 meters too short! You can't make this stuff up....



#56 AllseeingEye

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 08:45 AM

Just lovely: http://www.timescolo...ffort-1.7861212

 

....and the very last sentence in that story is most worrisome of all; as I predicted above what ultimately emerges as a result of the NSP will almost certainly be a pale shadow of what was originally intended - and needed. Good old Canada...mucking up badly-needed military purchases and modernization programs since....forever.



#57 Mike K.

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:32 AM

Blame the Made in Canada nonsense. We can purchase some incredible NATO member-built VESSELS for a tiny fraction of what a SINGLE Canadian vessel would cost to build, and with proven military technology.

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#58 jonny

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:41 AM

Meanwhile, our jets were made in the USA. Our tanks and jeeps were made in Germany. Our primary rifles are American. Our helicopters are all American made. Our heavy lift planes are from the USA. Our new SAR fixed wing aircraft will be European.

But our navy and coast guard ships must be 100% built in Canada!

BC Ferries has been replacing a pretty much a ship a year for the past decade and will be for the foreseeable future. They seem to be able to do so on time and on budget. Hmmmm.

#59 goke

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 11:06 AM

Meanwhile, our jets were made in the USA. Our tanks and jeeps were made in Germany. Our primary rifles are American. Our helicopters are all American made. Our heavy lift planes are from the USA. Our new SAR fixed wing aircraft will be European.

But our navy and coast guard ships must be 100% built in Canada!

BC Ferries has been replacing a pretty much a ship a year for the past decade and will be for the foreseeable future. They seem to be able to do so on time and on budget. Hmmmm.

 

Minor bit of info:

The C7, C8 (M16) rifle the CF uses are made in Canada by Diemaco/Colt Canada under license from Colt USA. The sell to Canadian civilians now and are very sought after and respected.


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#60 AllseeingEye

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:53 PM

Meanwhile, our jets were made in the USA. Our tanks and jeeps were made in Germany. Our primary rifles are American. Our helicopters are all American made. Our heavy lift planes are from the USA. Our new SAR fixed wing aircraft will be European.

But our navy and coast guard ships must be 100% built in Canada!

BC Ferries has been replacing a pretty much a ship a year for the past decade and will be for the foreseeable future. They seem to be able to do so on time and on budget. Hmmmm.

My broader point however is that CAF "procurement" - and the completely muddlef***ed state of that process in this country - involves much more than the initial purchase; it also includes ongoing support and maintenance and it is these caveats more often than not that Canada insists on embedding into the contract language, that IMO unnecessarily complicates the process. That, in addition to our historical insistence on "Canadian-izing" whatever military system or sub-system we do eventually settle on, further adds to delays and cost overruns.

 

The entire military procurement process in this country needs a drastic overhaul, from beginning to middle to end.



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