3842 replies to this topic

[Nparker]

...our current problem was created by doctors overprescribing "clean" opioids, getting their patients addicted.  Now we have UBC doubling down on the message that taking drugs like opioids are OK and that you aren't at risk of dying from your "clean" drug.

I said the same thing recently. The new normal is that opioids are fine as long as they are "clean" and taxpayer funded.

[Mike K.]

The truth is that heroin won’t kill you if you use it according to your tolerance levels, and you can live a perfectly normal and functional life while addicted to heroin (David Bowie was a lifelong addict). If you use too much, it can kill you by shutting down your breathing. So some people have died from heroin ODs, especially/commonly when rebounding after being clean for a long period.

Where Fentanyl comes in is it’s super strong, so when a heroin user encounters it in their supply, it could push them well over the edge. Fentanyl, of course, is now laced into lots of drugs by accident or on purpose and users seek it for its strong but super cheap high (heroin is very expensive by comparison).

There is something to be said about a “clean” supply but gosh, we don’t seem to advocate not using drugs any more. Younger generations see hard drugs like past generations saw weed. Surely that’s not a good long term strategy?

[Victoria Watcher]

The vast majority of heroin users cannot hold down a normal job.

So many will be supported by our social programs and/or criminal activity to support the habit. So neither are good.

Comparing a poor street drug user with an exceptional celebrity isn’t reasonable.

If “safe supply” is implemented, how low do we want to go in age? Should we prescribe it for 13 year olds? Why not? Why would we insist on abstinence for young people just starting out in a drug path, but not for seasoned users?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 18 July 2022 - 11:06 AM.

[Ismo07]

There is something to be said about a “clean” supply but gosh, we don’t seem to advocate not using drugs any more. Younger generations see hard drugs like past generations saw weed. 

 

Really?  I think the advocacy is there for non-use, but also the realization that telling addicted people not to use might be a little like peeing into a strong wind.  I do not think the younger generation sees heroin like the past folks saw weed...  Very interesting perspective...

[Mike K.]

The vast majority of heroin users cannot hold down a normal job.

 

Because their supply ends up costing far more than their jobs can pay for.

 

And what I'm saying is you could use heroin your entire life, and nobody other than your dealer would know it. It doesn't cause health problems, it doesn't make you look any different.

 

So long as you're using a clean supply, and your lifestyle can support that supply and good nutrition, and an otherwise healthy/comfortable life (living in a home, not on the streets).

[Mike K.]

Really?  I think the advocacy is there for non-use, but also the realization that telling addicted people not to use might be a little like peeing into a strong wind.  I do not think the younger generation sees heroin like the past folks saw weed...  Very interesting perspective...

 

Kids in high school are using hard drugs at higher numbers today than they were even in the 90s.

[Ismo07]

Kids in high school are using hard drugs at higher numbers today than they were even in the 90s.

 

You equate that to weed?

[Mike K.]

Huh?

[Barrrister]

Actually, prolonged heroin use does some serious damage to the brain.. I suggest that you review the rather large body of research from John Hopkings, Mayo Clinic and Harvard medical.

[Mike K.]

If you repeatedly overdose, yes. It’s the same brain damage fentanyl overdoses cause.

There are health complications from using -any- substance over a long enough period (see what happens after 40 years of Tylenol use). But heroin use in otherwise healthy, well nourished and not homeless people doesn’t kill or cause serious complications comparable to daily alcohol use, smoking, sugary foods, etc, which are all legal substances.

[Victoria Watcher]

There are health complications from using -any- substance over a long enough period (see what happens after 40 years of Tylenol use). But heroin use in otherwise healthy, well nourished and not homeless people doesn’t kill or cause serious complications comparable to daily alcohol use, smoking, sugary foods, etc, which are all legal substances.

 

I can lean a little more this way.  

 

But the lifestyle attached to constant use is not healthy (diet, crime, danger, social, HIV/hepatitis).

 

David Bowie or Dave Gahan or Keith Richards is one thing, but your local hobo on heroin is another.

 

Finally, repeated heroin use often results in heroin use disorder—a chronic relapsing disease that goes beyond physical dependence and is characterized by uncontrollable drug-seeking, no matter the consequences.

 

 

https://nida.nih.gov...ects-heroin-use

 

Once a person has heroin use disorder, seeking and using the drug becomes their primary purpose in life.

 

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 18 July 2022 - 12:21 PM.

[Mike K.]

Yes, it’s a drug for the very wealthy, for sure.

Now its use often leads to homelessness, and the downward spiral, which then leads to other health complications, which includes cheaper substitutes, etc. and on it goes.

[Victoria Watcher]

Yes, it’s a drug for the very wealthy, for sure.

Now its use often leads to homelessness, and the downward spiral, which then leads to other health complications, which includes cheaper substitutes, etc. and on it goes.

 

Even guys that can afford the best stuff still mess up (Prince).

[Ismo07]

Huh?

 

Alcohol and Other Drug Use Among BC Students | Here to Help

 

I cannot find anything that shows kids use hard drugs today like kids of yesteryear used weed...  That is a bad statement.. 

Edited by Ismo07, 18 July 2022 - 12:33 PM.

[Mike K.]

Yes. I wouldn’t be surprised if Bowie did. Michael Jackson, maybe.

[Mike K.]

Alcohol and Other Drug Use Among BC Students | Here to Help

I cannot find anything that shows kids use hard drugs today like kids of yesteryear used weed... That is a bad statement..

Your 2009 link on a study from 1992 to 2003 is not “today.”

[Ismo07]

Your 2009 link on a study from 1992 to 2003 is not “today.”

 

Please show me.. I've looked at a few...  FactSheet0318b.pdf (mcs.bc.ca)

 

• Past year illegal drug use Canada by age 2019 | Statista

Edited by Ismo07, 18 July 2022 - 12:44 PM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Please show me.. I've looked at a few...

 

https://www.nejm.org...56/nejmc2201761

 

See the spike?

 

 

 

 

Drug overdoses and deaths in the United States are skyrocketing, so states and the federal government are coming up with new ways to combat the crisis. Drug overdose deaths topped 100,000 during the 12-month period ending April 2021 — an increase of more than 28% from the year before.

 

 

https://www.cbsnews....vocates-combat/

 

 

 

Friedman and his colleagues found that fatal overdoses among adolescents nearly doubled from 492 in 2019 to 954 in 2020, an increase of 94%. There was an additional 20% rise in 2021 compared to the previous year. The highest rates were among Native American and Alaskan Native teens, followed by Latino teens.

 

 

https://www.npr.org/...nyl-laced-pills

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 18 July 2022 - 12:47 PM.

[Ismo07]

https://www.nejm.org...56/nejmc2201761

 

See the spike?

 

 

 

 

Drug overdoses and deaths in the United States are skyrocketing, so states and the federal government are coming up with new ways to combat the crisis. Drug overdose deaths topped 100,000 during the 12-month period ending April 2021 — an increase of more than 28% from the year before.

 

 

https://www.cbsnews....vocates-combat/

 

Is that by age?  I'm well aware of a spike in deaths due to drug use...  But saying youth think heavy drugs are the same as weed?  c'mon, don't mix up high school kids with overall overdoses...  Look at this..

 

• Past year illegal drug use students Canada by grade 2018-2019 | Statista

 

Heroin is less than glue, just like in past generations...

Edited by Ismo07, 18 July 2022 - 01:32 PM.

[Mike K.]

Hard drugs are not just heroin. That’s an antiquated way of looking at drugs. First and foremost kids can’t afford heroin. But they’ll steal pills.

Kids today are abusing molly, methamphetamines, prescription opioids and spice.

Did you have classmates dying of overdoses, ismo? Were your teachers advising you not to use drugs alone? Were schools sending parents reminders to ensure their prescription drugs were safely stored?

We had the DARE program in the 90s. Today kids go to funerals.