24 replies to this topic

[UrbanRail]

As I am sure you are aware, an all party committee was formed 6 months ago by the Liberals to look at reforming the current election system. Trudeau did say that 2015 would be the last year for First Past the Post. Well we have the results from the committee, and it seems that the Liberals are backtracking on their promise......?

 

Your thoughts?

 

(Besides the anti-left comments)

[nagel]

You don't change the electoral system without a referendum.

[lanforod]

You don't get a great report with dissenting supplementary reports and then accuse the committee of not doing their job in question period.

[Jill]

I would love to see proportional representation. I hoped the referendum that came out of the Citizens' Assembly would succeed, but given that I went to a forum about it and sat next to a guy who informed me that it wouldn't work because no one in Oak Bay could possibly understand Saanich's issues, I wasn't optimistic.

[jonny]

I agree with nagel. A referendum is a must on a change of this magnitude. The Libs look like they only want to change to their preferred system, a preferred ranked ballot.

The whole thing reeks if you ask me.

Monsef is getting skewered over her handling of this in QP.

[nagel]

The only problem with referendums is in our current society it's fairly easy to kill things with half truths.  I seriously doubt anything would ever be approved, especially when a major political party would be disadvantaged by its approval.

[rjag]

The only folks that seem to want change are the ones that are perennially in 3rd or 4th place in elections.

 

However, I agree that first past the post isn't perfect. I would think that if you don't gain 50%+1 in an election then there should be a run off where the top 3 are placed on a new ballot and any 4th place or after are struck off. still no 50%+1 then the 3rd is struck off....not perfect and expensive but preferential to being permanently in a minority government a la Italy 

The nearly pure proportional representation system of the First Republic had resulted not only in party fragmentation and therefore governmental instability, but also insulation of the parties from the electorate and civil society. This was known in Italian as partitocrazia, in contrast to democracy, and resulted in corruption and pork-barrel politics.

 

 

I'd also like to be able to vote for our Premier and PM so that we feel we have an actual say on our leader not the party choice.

[jonny]

The only problem with referendums is in our current society it's fairly easy to kill things with half truths. I seriously doubt anything would ever be approved, especially when a major political party would be disadvantaged by its approval.

I would argue that it should be hard to change the way we elect our representatives. Especially when our present system has left us with a pretty decent country.

[nagel]

I would argue that it should be hard to change the way we elect our representatives. Especially when our present system has left us with a pretty decent country.

Fair enough.  We have a much better system than the electoral college.  What a joke that is.  10-15 states are the only ones that count.

[jonny]

Fair enough. We have a much better system than the electoral college. What a joke that is. 10-15 states are the only ones that count.

What would also be a joke is if the Libs change to ranked, then the NDP got in and changed to PR and then the Cons got in and changed back to FPTP.

What we need is a good process and a good, defensible decision that the country is happy to live with. A rammed through change by JT would be a mess for years to come.

[VicHockeyFan]

Fair enough.  We have a much better system than the electoral college.  What a joke that is.  10-15 states are the only ones that count.

 

You don't think that Ontario and Quebec are all that really count here?

[spanky123]

As I am sure you are aware, an all party committee was formed 6 months ago by the Liberals to look at reforming the current election system. Trudeau did say that 2015 would be the last year for First Past the Post. Well we have the results from the committee, and it seems that the Liberals are backtracking on their promise......?

 

Your thoughts?

 

(Besides the anti-left comments)

 

There was never any serious consideration given to changing the system, no elected parties ever want to do that. It got him votes and now he has reneged. One of many.

[johnk]

I dont think this is top of mind for most people. For the most part I think people are happy enough with first past the post. Its what we are used to and election results have pretty well represented the mood of voters.
I would add that most proposals to reform the system have been pretty arcane and confusing for average Joe. IMO things dont have much chance of going anywhere until and unless the pols can make the case a whole lot more clearly than at present.

[victoriassecret]

This was about making sure the Liberals never lost another election again and it back fired. We won bigly.

[UrbanRail]

Thanks

 

Just was curious.

 

Its unlikely the system will change anytime soon and for an referendum to actually work, it would depend on how the question is crafted.

 

cheers

[Awaiting Juno]

I note that the share that "Do Not Vote" seem to be a large contingent and as a result we are often left with a government that is the choice of those engaged enough to actually vote.  Apathy about the system and its outcomes has led to a situation where many just don't care because they don't see how it makes it a difference anyways.  I don't think electoral reform is going to change that, particularly if it results in a system that is even harder for the average person to understand and engage with.  Further, I think part of the problem is the party system - often there are parts of a platform that people agree with, and others they hate - but at the polls, we are ask wholesale to accept the platform presented.  There are issues that are so big, they deserve a vote, regardless of the party that will implement the change.  I think there are good measures of people who voted for JT/Liberals because of the other parts of the platform, and they really don't care about electoral reform.  So what if we had to vote on the individual planks of the platforms all parties present, and the officials elected are duty bound to study and implement those planks?  Or what if we simply made having to vote a requirement - with the option of voting for "None of the Above"?  End of the day, if the matter was studied - by people who know about electoral systems and recommendations made, perhaps giving the public what they want is no more good government, then letting children play in traffic good parenting.

[lanforod]

Both mandatory voting and online voting were recommended to NOT be implemented at this time.

 

I'm not sure what the reasons were.

 

Mandatory voting isn't democratic in itself though. Folks have a choice to not do something as well.

[North Shore]

However, I agree that first past the post isn't perfect. I would think that if you don't gain 50%+1 in an election then there should be a run off where the top 3 are placed on a new ballot and any 4th place or after are struck off. still no 50%+1 then the 3rd is struck off....not perfect and expensive but preferential to being permanently in a minority government a la Italy 

 

 

...Isn't that the definition of the single transferrable vote that was voted down here in BC?

[AllseeingEye]

I'm watching highly respected Global TV commentator Tom Clark right now on the news reporting from Toronto and as he said regarding this latest snafu by the minister "it's all over an issue that no one really care's about.....", quote unquote. 

 

Since I suspect Clark is just a little closer to the center of the Canadian political universe than any of us on VV with his finger on the political pulse of the nation, not to mention our major population and business centers and his extensive contacts therein, I have to wonder since I only ever read about 'reform' on this and other similar forums and, per RJag's comment above re: '3rd or 4th place parties' and their motives, it appears it's generally not a hot button issue for the majority of the population in central or eastern Canada and certainly not terribly high on the agenda of either of the main two parties - could it be then that it's really only a high priority item for the NDP and its supporters?

 

Certainly I never hear a hue and cry from across the land for electoral reform from any of my circle of family (East or West), friends or associates, except for one longtime friend from my university days in Vancouver who is a hard core NDP'er through and through. Aside from him nada, nothing, from anyone anywhere. 

 

Quite aside from all of that was the impossible timeline Trudeau Junior imposed on this issue/"promise"; as currently mandated it would have to go from Parliament to the Senate and very likely back to Parliament again - within 3 months? For anyone with even a base modicum understanding of the the mechanics of our political system, all I can say is "good luck!" with that.....

Edited by AllseeingEye, 02 December 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[LJ]

But if it was only the NDP that was pushing it, why would the Liberals have promised it?