143 replies to this topic

[nagel]

^^ It depends what you mean by the expansion of transportation corridors.  If you mean transit then I think there will be regional buy-in.  If you mean greater road capacity that's just not going to happen in the core.

[RFS]

There is a great alternate route(s): build rail all the way out to Sooke as part of the Galloping Goose and from Westshore to downtown on the E&N line. More people, could be moved more efficiently along these corridors which would then also become focal points for residential developments along the route increasing density in a manageable fashion.

yeah its a nice thought but the problem is its never going to happen and we are chasing that bike/rail/car-free fantasy while doing nothing to solve the real traffic problems we have and will continue to have

[nagel]

yeah its a nice thought but the problem is its never going to happen and we are chasing that bike/rail/car-free fantasy while doing nothing to solve the real traffic problems we have and will continue to have

Which can only be "solved" by providing alternatives not by increasing capacity.

Edited by nagel, 12 January 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[dasmo]

The Westshore was against an authority dictating what they could and couldn't do within their borders, which isn't a surprise considering the rest of the region appears hellbent on stifling the flow of traffic while the Westshore is scrambling to ensure traffic flows as quickly and smoothly as possible.

 

What we need is a regional transportation authority free entirely from the political winds at our 13 city halls. That's going to be next to impossible to implement and manage effectively.

Ummmm as shown by the mess around the Home Depot and Costco area? Langford is far from an excellent example of urban planning. 

[jonny]

Unfortunately, I don't think the Westshore is big enough and the transportation problems are not bad enough for alternatives to be seriously considered or even make sense.

[RFS]

Which can only be "solved" by providing alternatives not by increasing capacity.

i disagree, by that logic we should still have just the old island highway two lane all the way to nanaimo? why expand any road if capacity is pointless. the fact that this is even a discussion is indicative of our problem. a more serious city with leadership that had a clue would have acknowledged the situation decades ago and would be working together to solve our congestion. cities build roads. thats pretty much their raison d'etre

[dasmo]

Which can only be "solved" by providing alternatives not by increasing capacity.

Exactly. Living in Rotterdam for a year without a car gave me a real experience of the alternatives. Especially bike lanes.  Was able to do everything on our bike, even take two free chairs home! Protected lanes make a giant difference. You are simply not in the traffic which in Rotterdam would have been totally insane. As it was we could ride with our son on his bike across downtown to school. It's not like people don't love their cars there. The roads were very busy. But...there were alternatives. And roundabouts. we need roundabouts. Way to many stop signs and traffic lights especially in key spots.  Bike lanes, roundabouts and a tram from Duncan to Victoria. Good for another fifty years. 

[dasmo]

i disagree, by that logic we should still have just the old island highway two lane all the way to nanaimo? why expand any road if capacity is pointless. the fact that this is even a discussion is indicative of our problem. a more serious city with leadership that had a clue would have acknowledged the situation decades ago and would be working together to solve our congestion. cities build roads. thats pretty much their raison d'etre

Sometimes it's not about simply more, it's about better. Our highway is big enough and there are no other routes to build another. So it needs to be smarter. It's the feeders and the peripheral roads and intersections that are the problem not the highway itself. 

[nagel]

I'm not suggesting LRT.  Just BRT using bus-on-shoulder lanes on the TCH all the way to the two central cores of the Westshore (cores might be a tad rich).  Off the TCH the lanes will be more difficult to implement but that could be a second phase.

 

Seeing road building as the raison d'etre of a city is pretty sad.  I guess the CoV should wrap up operations then (many would love this of course).

 

I'm seeing a desire to return to the 1970's of urban planning where great roadways were built all over NA for the "greater good".  We aren't there anymore, and you'll be hard pressed to find planners and transportation engineers who want to return to it.

[Mike K.]

Ummmm as shown by the mess around the Home Depot and Costco area? Langford is far from an excellent example of urban planning. 

 

That's exactly the point/problem. Langford has literally been forced to assume the region's big box stores. Remember when the Peninsula threw a hissy fit when Costco wanted to setup shop north of the core? That led to the Langford we have today, the single area willing to open its doors so that the stores Victorians overwhelmingly want to have have a place to open.

 

The issue of Millstream is a regional issue. Langford can't build enough capacity to handle the shopping needs of 350,000 people, but it's been forced to handle that traffic and they're doing the absolute best they can.

 

What would help is if we, as a region, recognized that relegating every single big-box store to the Westshore was a terrible mistake, and the Peninsula needs to assume some of that pressure. Soon. That would be the start, the very tip of the iceberg of accepting responsibility for the Langford people like to rag on as a product of this region's ineptitude and self-serving desires.

[dasmo]

That's exactly the point/problem. Langford has literally been forced to assume the region's big box stores. Remember when the Peninsula threw a hissy fit when Costco wanted to setup shop north of the core? That led to the Langford we have today, the single area willing to open its doors so that the stores Victorians overwhelmingly want have have a place to open.

 

The issue of Millstream is a regional issue. Langford can't build enough capacity to handle the shopping needs of 350,000 people, but it's been forced to handle that traffic and they're doing the absolute best they can.

 

What would help is if we, as a region, recognized that relegating every single big-box store to the Westshore was a terrible mistake, and the Peninsula needs to assume some of that pressure. Soon. That would be the start, the very tip of the iceberg of accepting responsibility for the Langford people like to rag on as a product of this region's ineptitude and self-serving desires.

Nope. It's purely a planning cluster f*k. If it was me, I would have mandated strata parking for the area so no place can block the flow of people. I would also have forced better pedestrian movement between and within these complexes. This would potentially stop someone from driving from Home Depot, to Tim's to the market. Right now this is what one would do because you will risk your life otherwise.  There was no planning there. It was simply opened up as a free for all. 

Langford is not handling the shopping needs of 350,000 people. Nanaimo handles more. So does downtown. With downtown people tend to park once though.... 

[Mike K.]

I think your personal opinion and ideology is clouding your judgement a little.

 

Costco in Langford handles 100% of demand for Costco for a population nearing 400,000 people. No single store in the CRD attracts more shoppers than the Langford Costco. Nothing comes close. 80% of Costco shoppers are arriving from outside the Westshore.

 

Rona and Home Depot, they attract nearly 100% of the region's professional trades and builders. The smaller Home Depot in Saanich gets the job done, but the big orders still originate in Langford.

 

Superstore attracts nearly 100% of demand for Presidents Choice products, similar to the Costco draw.

 

When you have  major retailers each with a massive daily draw situated within close proximity of one another or along the same thoroughfares, you're going to have the chaos that you do. There is no planning for that sort of volume, there's only management of whatever comes your way.

[dasmo]

I think your personal opinion and ideology is clouding your judgement a little.

 

This....

[nagel]

Actually most professional builders use Slegg, whose products come from locations all over the CRD.  They phone/fax orders in, so no need to even visit the store, so they don't need massive parking lots like HD provides (Langford's is never even half full).

Edited by nagel, 12 January 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[dasmo]

For instance, How about a lighted cross walk from home depot to the Tim's side? Or simply making the entire area more pedestrian friendly to prevent the scenario I describe above where people are driving within the complex. It's too late for that now but that is what planning is.... 

[nagel]

For instance, How about a lighted cross walk from home depot to the Tim's side? Or simply making the entire area more pedestrian friendly to prevent the scenario I describe above where people are driving within the complex. It's too late for that now but that is what planning is.... 

It really is too late.  They put Costco on the top of a small mountain.  Even I wouldn't walk up there, and I've biked up there three times on an electric bike and was sweating by the end of it.  Contrast that with downtown Vancouver's Costco which anyone could easily walk to and is right next to mass transit.  Sure not everyone is going to walk to shop at Costco, but given that you can fit about as much stuff in a stroller as you can in a shopping cart, it provides people with an actual alternative whereas right now here we have none.

[dasmo]

[dasmo]

A traffic circle and some pedestrian friendly development would have made a difference. The parking in front is silly. Make a street so you park once. If you go to the Market you will probably drive across the parking lot to go to Scann designs... You definitely will if you the go to the pub. This alone adds a lot to the congestion in this area. The fact they are building condos there now but the entire area is unwalkable is a joke.... 

[Mike K.]

^oh c'mon, man

 

The primary goal for that corridor is to move traffic as quickly and expediently as possible, not to create a walking paradise or a cycling network for ...whom, exactly? The tradesman? Or someone's mom buying 50 rolls of TP? That traffic circle would create nothing but a hazard and an unnecessary chokepoint as its simply too small to be functional. You'd literally need a two or three lane traffic circle about three or four times the size of the one you drew to make it somewhat functional and more or less safe, and even then its effectiveness would be far below that of the current situation.

 

You're never going to solve the issue of Langford traffic if the rest of the region is unwilling to take on some of the burden the Westshore is taking on or some of the burden of allowing people to efficiently move to and from scenes like Costco. We can pretend the solutions are not with the CoV, Saanich, Oak Bay and Esquimalt, but they are. We're the ones creating the problem that materializes on the Westshore, which we then scoff at and point fingers at by calling it bad planning.

[VicHockeyFan]

West Shore is looking for land for 4 more schools...

 

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