6319 replies to this topic

[splashflash]

1, 2, 3 make money - Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay is a figurative license to print money. 30 (Duke Point) essentially broke even last year.

Could you provide the source that route 30 started making money last year or the past few years. Yes Highway 17, the South Perimeter Road was extended and until last year the dropping of the Port Mann bridge toll would have shifted demand to the route from Horseshoe Bay. Lower fuel prices since 2014 may have contributed to a turn-around, but even with the dropped Saturday and Sunday sailings I doubt it is breaking even. Sailings were dropped in 2013 and the subsidy on went down to $25M. But in 2013 and years previous this was a profligate route, in 2012 it lost $30 millions!

Year Losses

2009 $23.9M
2010 $24.0M
2011 $23.8M
2012 $29.9M
2013 $25.0M

[splashflash]

Here's the source for that:

https://facchairs.fi...-duke-point.pdf

[ks112]

Could you provide the source that route 30 started making money last year or the past few years. Yes Highway 17, the South Perimeter Road was extended and until last year the dropping of the Port Mann bridge toll would have shifted demand to the route from Horseshoe Bay. Lower fuel prices since 2014 may have contributed to a turn-around, but even with the dropped Saturday and Sunday sailings I doubt it is breaking even. Sailings were dropped in 2013 and the subsidy on went down to $25M. But in 2013 and years previous this was a profligate route, in 2012 it lost $30 millions!

Year Losses

2009 $23.9M
2010 $24.0M
2011 $23.8M
2012 $29.9M
2013 $25.0M

This is the net income for BC Ferries in 2012 and 2013: ($6.8M), $16.6M

This is the net income for BC Ferries in 2016 and 2017: $45.8M, $92.0M

 

Rising tide lifts all boats, unless you want to make the argument that routes 1 and 2 are solely responsible for this.  And just on a basic common sense approach, why are you quoting data that are 5 to 9 years ago when trying to make a case on what is happening currently?

[splashflash]

Because that is all I am able to find by route. Any links?

[jonny]

This is all publicly available information.

I also stand corrwcted. Route 3 is no longer subsidized. Routes 1 and 2 make money. Routes 3 and 30 do not.

https://www.bcferrie...er_reports.html

[ks112]

This is all publicly available information.

I also stand corrwcted. Route 3 is no longer subsidized. Routes 1 and 2 make money. Routes 3 and 30 do not.

https://www.bcferrie...er_reports.html

looks like route 3 almost broke even in 2016 with a loss of $770k.  It makes operating profit though of around $10M, so you might as well keep it going as the capital investments contributing to the current deprecation has already been spent.

Edited by ks112, 06 June 2018 - 10:16 AM.

[57WestHills]

30 might be even this year - I find BC Ferries reporting confusing, mostly because I am not a money guy.

 

What makes 30 difficult financially is:

- longest mainline crossing quite substantially;

- the Route 30 boats are the only ones that run at "full speed" in everyday service. That effects fuel costs a lot; 

- where I get confused is where capital costs come in, but, the Queen of Alberni is a mechanical nightmare that requires a lot of money to keep going. It has already broken down at least three times this year but luckily it was at low volume times so the New West came in once or twice, and the Coquitlam was extended on the route for another; and

- Duke Point. A one route major terminal with substantial operating costs. 

 

What it has going for it is:

- big upticks in traffic, and it actually has the capacity to take on some more traffic if the ebbs & flows could be balanced a bit. I think it is third of fourth place in "deck space utilization" which is basically how much the car decks are filled over a period of time;

- they run the ships on the lowest crew licenses almost all the time. With lower pax counts there is a lot less staff costs / requirements. 

 

All this said though, I really do not think that profitability should actually be a measure. I am on team giant subsidy and get the money back from us through onboard sales / retail / food & beverage etc. 

Edited by 57WestHills, 06 June 2018 - 12:41 PM.

[splashflash]

Year Losses

2014 $22.5M
2015 $18.3M
2016 $11.7M
2017 $12.1M

These all include the cost of capital. Route 30 has grown revenue nicely since 2012 offsetting the high costs of the longer sailing times compared to routes 1 and 2.

[ks112]

Year Losses

2014 $22.5M
2015 $18.3M
2016 $11.7M
2017 $12.1M

These all include the cost of capital. Route 30 has grown revenue nicely since 2012 offsetting the high costs of the longer sailing times compared to routes 1 and 2.

where are you getting these losses from?  if you look at the 2016/17 commissioner reports (pg 25) the losses for route 3 are $708k for 2016 and $7.3M for 2017 

 

Westhills, the capital costs are all under the depreciation line, any routine maintenance costs will be under operating expenses along with labour and fuel etc..  The fact that the route makes an operating profit means that it makes money when it is in operations provided you don't have to make any substantial capital investments.  When you make substantial capital investments it shows up as an expense under the depreciation line (example, reno the terminal for $100M which has a life of 10 years, then you will take a deprecation expense of $10M a year for 10 years).  So from a pure business perspective, given that they have already made the capital investments then they should operate it, make the $10M a year for as long as they can until a time where they need to make another substantial capital investment.

[lanforod]

Spirit of BC: new carpets, new playground, glass walls separating the play areas, staterooms removed and a small lounge there now, coffee bar, lots of power stations added...


Someone rotate those 2 please!

[DustMagnet]

Didn't they also double the square footage of the gift shop?

[thundergun]

Don't know the actual footage but it would certainly seem so. Largest gift shop of any of the BC Ferries I've been on that's for sure. 

[Nparker]

...Someone rotate those 2 please!

Glad you said that. For a moment I thought the SoBC had gone all Poseidon Adventure on you! 

[lanforod]

Forum upgrade that deals with that on the fly is needed stat .

Yes, the gift shop has been expanded to take over the arcade spaces. Probably twice as big and totally unnecessary imo. Plenty of other creative ways to use the space and even generate cash.

[lanforod]

Kids verdict on the playground: underwhelming. They miss the old slide.

[RFS]

Forum upgrade that deals with that on the fly is needed stat .

Yes, the gift shop has been expanded to take over the arcade spaces. Probably twice as big and totally unnecessary imo. Plenty of other creative ways to use the space and even generate cash.

to be fair, the arcades have been looking a little tired.  They've had the same machines since like 2002

[lanforod]

It was time for them to go for sure but simply using the space for more gift shop isn't what I'd have done.

[LJ]

That gift shop generates a lot of revenue for the ferries.

[lanforod]

I'm not convinced that expanding it 800 sq ft will generate that much more revenue. It was already sizeable. A lot of the space is empty floor space now, they just spread the racks out a lot. It looks better sure, but does that generate more sales? It doesn't compete with anything!

[DustMagnet]

I'm not convinced that expanding it 800 sq ft will generate that much more revenue. It was already sizeable. A lot of the space is empty floor space now, they just spread the racks out a lot. It looks better sure, but does that generate more sales? It doesn't compete with anything!

 

Maybe people are more inclined to buy if it's less crowded?  The gift shop always seemed very crowded with displays and people.

 

 

 

There's something to be said for the psychology of white space.