725 replies to this topic

[sdwright.vic]

I think you’d be very interested in ‘Guns, Germs, and Steel’ by Jared Diamond,

Read the wiki... sounds interesting.

However, the question still stands, if the shoe was on the other foot, would things of turned out any different?

[rjag]

Read the wiki... sounds interesting.

However, the question still stands, if the shoe was on the other foot, would things of turned out any different?

 

West Coast FN were slavers and raiders...a measure of a cheifs wealth was the number of slaves in his house, and how many were buried under the foundations of his house etc.....there were also suggestions of sacrifice and cannibalism 

[Benezet]

I accidentally came across this letter to the editor of the Owen Sound Hub, which touches on the educational value of statues, Macdonald’s vision of Canada and his pursuit of voting rights for women and indigenous people, and more. Quite interesting.

http://owensoundhub....atue-moved.html

[dasmo]

It would have been better to leave the statue and erect an educational plaque about his time as PM. As it stands I doubt many knew who the statue represented, first peoples or not so I would file this under controversial grandstanding...

[Sparky]

I accidentally came across this letter to the editor of the Owen Sound Hub, which touches on the educational value of statues, Macdonald’s vision of Canada and his pursuit of voting rights for women and indigenous people, and more. Quite interesting.

http://owensoundhub....atue-moved.html

 

I want to buy a bridge and some swamp land from Phil. 

[Rob Randall]

It would have been better to leave the statue and erect an educational plaque about his time as PM. As it stands I doubt many knew who the statue represented, first peoples or not so I would file this under controversial grandstanding...

 

I don't think this ever would have been an issue if the stature was anywhere else. It's the fact FN had to walk directly past it. You could put any interpretive plaque you want, they still have to walk past it.

 

Imagine if that allegedly sex assaulting acupuncturist was a security guard there, you could have a giant sign beside him listing his good and bad qualities, you still have to walk past the guy to get into City Hall.

[Victoria Watcher]

how many FN members do business with city hall?  more FN members have to write the word victoria on forms envelopes letters etc. that seems worse they see that colonial name on every piece of mail they receive too

 

or when they see right in their esq and songhees neighbourhoods admirals maplebank and craigflower all very colonial.

 

  https://www.vicnews....-admirals-road/

 

members on those reserves cannot even go buy bread without going on those streets.  then again if colonialism did not happen those tribes would not buy bread they never farmed anything.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 19 August 2018 - 07:05 AM.

[RFS]

I don't think this ever would have been an issue if the stature was anywhere else. It's the fact FN had to walk directly past it. You could put any interpretive plaque you want, they still have to walk past it.

Imagine if that allegedly sex assaulting acupuncturist was a security guard there, you could have a giant sign beside him listing his good and bad qualities, you still have to walk past the guy to get into City Hall.

Total red herring. Normal, everyday first nation folks dont care. This is about helps and co fulfilling a radical, sjw, uvic agenda and stoking division and controversy.
Also, the only problem with your little comparison is unlike the sex offending acupuncturist, MacDonald wasn't actually a bad or racist guy by the standards of his day. In fact he was quite liberal/moderate.
Also, unlike the acupuncturist he was the a father of confederation who built our nation

[Rob Randall]

You could also make the argument that if there had been no MacDonald, this area would likely be on American soil for better or worse.

[rjag]

Sorry Rob I don’t buy that 1 bit. While Sir John may have been classified as the architect, his intentions were not to eradicate but assimilate.

The real damage came from the cruelty of the operators of those schools and the policies they derived as to what should happen inside.

To say the statue at the entrance to city hall was a trigger for FN’s, I ask then why no trigger when walking past all the churches.... the practitioners of the actual violence.

[Nparker]

...To say the statue at the entrance to city hall was a trigger for FN’s, I ask then why no trigger when walking past all the churches.... the practitioners of the actual violence.

You might be on to something there...

[Rob Randall]

To say the statue at the entrance to city hall was a trigger for FN’s, I ask then why no trigger when walking past all the churches.... the practitioners of the actual violence.

 

Because there's no more blatant avatar for that shameful period than a lifelike statue. 

 

Colonizers of that period mostly acted with good intentions; they were heavily influenced by the church and felt obligated to carry out assimilation. Sadly, the religious institutions saddled with the task were (and still are) a breeding ground for all sorts of sick abuse.

[rjag]

Because there's no more blatant avatar for that shameful period than a lifelike statue. 
 
Colonizers of that period mostly acted with good intentions; they were heavily influenced by the church and felt obligated to carry out assimilation. Sadly, the religious institutions saddled with the task were (and still are) a breeding ground for all sorts of sick abuse.

A cross worn around everyone’s necks, hung on every wall would be a strong trigger

The more I see and read about this, the more I’m convinced it’s an agenda item for left wingers, Academics and SJW who desperately need a cause.
His statues have been around the country for decades yet there was no mention of these triggers at the truth and reconciliation hearings....don’t you think that this would be one of the events where the topic would really be discussed?

[Victoria Watcher]

Sadly, the religious institutions saddled with the task were (and still are) a breeding ground for all sorts of sick abuse.

 

Yes, but churches are an easy target. the abuse rate is much higher in normal schools.  perhaps 100x higher.

 

https://www.cbsnews....buse-in-school/

 

cbs news:

 

"[T]hink the Catholic Church has a problem?" she said. "The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

 

As the National Catholic Register's reporter Wayne Laugesen points out, the federal report said 422,000 California public-school students would be victims before graduation — a number that dwarfs the state's entire Catholic-school enrollment of 143,000.

 

Yet, during the first half of 2002, the 61 largest newspapers in California ran nearly 2,000 stories about sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, mostly concerning past allegations. During the same period, those newspapers ran four stories about the federal government's discovery of the much larger — and ongoing — abuse scandal in public schools.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 19 August 2018 - 07:51 AM.

[Mike K.]

Wowzers, I had not realized that was the case. The media hasn’t indeed focused on that.

[zoomer]

K, going briefly off topic but had to address that ridiculous article written by a member of the Catholic Church. Point take that sexual abuse of kids happens in all schools - but 100 x ?! What an idiotic statement. For argument’s sake, if 1% of kids in Catholic schools have been abused, that means 100% of all other school kids have?!

The author loses all credibility there.

[Mike K.]

6-10% of children in the public school system in California are likely to face abuse, which works out to as many as 422,000 children.

The total enrollment of children in the state’s Catholic school system is 143,000, one-third of the children who statistically speaking will face abuse in the public system.

The article doesn’t cite how many children faced abuse among the 143,000 enrolled in the Catholic system, or at least I didn’t immediately see a reference to that figure, but I would imagine it’s around 4,200 and where 100 x 4,200 gives us 422,000. The author cites up to 422,000 as the rate is 6-10% and I’d imagine there are 4,220,000 students in the California public school system.

[zoomer]

So assuming the numbers (big assumption based on the extreme spin), the author is only claiming that there are 100 times more kids abused in the non- catholic school system than the catholic. As we all know that is a meaningless comparison, that’s like comparing the total number of murders in Victoria to that of New York.

Such a dishonest point to make in an article. Tell us the rate of abuse in both types of institutions. I can’t imagine there would be a huge difference, although arguements can be made on both sides why one would be higher than the other if the true rates could be known.

Taking your guess on what he’s saying Mike, 4,200 kids abused out of 143,000 is about 2.9%. That x 100 = 290% of non-Catholic school kids are sexually abused. Why use 100 x the rate instead of per capita unless he’s spinning, which is disgusting considering the topic.

[Mike K.]

The point he’s making is the media has published thousands of articles on Catholic school abuse but obfuscates or doesn’t touch cases of abuse involving the public school system. The ones that do surface appear as isolated incidents when the stats suggest there’s as big of a problem, if not bigger, affecting public schools and public school students.

[rjag]

https://theprovince....an-empty-speech

 

 

 

Former Haisla First Nation chief and current MLA Ellis Ross says removal of John A. Macdonald statue from Victoria city hall an empty move.