830 replies to this topic

[kitty surprise]

^
One needs only look at any street corner downtown to see that our Mayor and Council have done a fine job attracting all sorts of newcomers, compatability with local norms and sensibilities be damned. But I digress

[Mike K.]

When you go to such extremes to describe the scenario, you might be inadvertently exposing how disingenuous you are towards this desire to explore “shared values.”

Look, I’ve been at this for 20 years. The “shared values” thing was also the plea when your neighbours were trying to stop your building from being built. Now you’re trying to use the same tactic to stop another building from being built.

It’s the same old story, just rinsed out and repeated. It doesn’t matter what Telus will propose, there will be vocal opposition to it, claims of supporting development just not thing particular development, something about shared values, etc.

[GreenBC]

I was one of many that spoke at the public hearing in favor of the project. A bit boring but my 5 minute video can be seen here:

https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

[Mike K.]

That was well done, GreenBC.

I think opponents either forget, or hope, nobody notices their tactics are carbon copies of the same strategies we’ve heard for decades. Even wrangling in Pam Madoff, a councillor who was one of the key architects of Victoria’s stranglehold on new housing over her long history on Victoria council (she voted against the building GreenBC lives in, and the buildings his neighbours live in, who now oppose other buildings, and so on) is a scripted blast from the past.

Intheknow, please don’t think I’m being disrespectful, but I can’t emphasize enough how unoriginal and scripted the opposition to this building is. We’ve seen this exact same approach for so long now that if we’d have listened and acted on it your home would not have been built.

[intheknow]

I feel like the little boy who cried wolf, "but this time it's for real". I hope we haven't all become so jaded from the record on repeat that we can't actually see when the wolf is real. In terms of cliche's, see my previous post in this thread about McDonalds. Its the same tropes, recast again and again, both for and against- that it makes it hard to see clearly. To be clear, I think this building could be another three to five storeys taller, but it needs to be far skinnier too. A London Gherkin, or a Norman Foster Lloyds, or a GHA's 125 Deansgate or even a Wang Shu Ningbo Museum - would all be better fits than what Telus is proposing. The full suite of Pathos and Logos is applied on both sides of every argument, and also in carbon copy. But the fact that it may seem like a record on repeat, doesn't also mean it isn't true. 

Edited by intheknow, 14 December 2021 - 11:52 AM.

[intheknow]

Let me summarize, basically, these arguments against this building are tripe because:

1.      This is Pam Madoff in disguise

2.      People said the same thing about all the buildings that are there now, and the only people opposing this building live in those buildings

3.      The arguments against sound all too familiar, scripted clichés, so clearly they have no value.

And those for the building say that:

1.      We need the money and jobs.

2.      Victoria needs new architecture

3.      they like the building

Why not express why those for this building think its fits with the character of the City? Why not tell us why this building is a good fit, how it is a positive contribution, beyond the money and jobs? That would be a far more interesting conversation. 

[Mike K.]

A London Gherkin, or a Norman Foster Lloyds, or a GHA's 125 Deansgate or even a Wang Shu Ningbo Museum - would all be better fits than what Telus is proposing.

 

 

I'm sorry, but that's exactly the scripted sort of opposition that we see on repeat, this reference to other buildings in other places. The plan is always to come up with a list of grandiose architectural wonders from the largest, most important and wealthiest cities in the world, and claim those buildings would be a better fit in an effort to appear totally ok with new development but knowing there is absolutely zero chance buildings like that would ever grace this little town's little downtown for there ever to be an expectation to deliver on this claim of architectural worldliness.

 

Do you have any idea what Pam Madoff would say if the Gherkin came knocking? She would make the front page of the TC if Llyod's dog's breakfast of a tower reared its head here (I mean it works in London because it's so quirky, that it fits in among its otherwise monotone surroundings). And so on.

[intheknow]

I'm sorry, but that's exactly the scripted sort of opposition that we see on repeat, this reference to other buildings in other places. The plan is always to come up with a list of grandiose architectural wonders from the largest, most important and wealthiest cities in the world, and claim those buildings would be a better fit in an effort to appear totally ok with new development but knowing there is absolutely zero chance buildings like that would ever grace this little town's little downtown for there ever to be an expectation to deliver on this claim of architectural worldliness.

 

Do you have any idea what Pam Madoff would say if the Gherkin came knocking? She would make the front page of the TC if Llyod's dog's breakfast of a tower reared its head here (I mean it that works in London because it's so bastardized and quirky, that it fits in among its otherwise monotone surroundings). And so on.

Well, that's exactly what I mean by having a little more ambition. Why can't Victoria get outstanding architecture?- maybe because the people that live here- that have 20 years experience doing this stuff- don't have the ambition for it. Instead, we'll settle for jobs- Kind of Canada in a nut shell really. 

[Mike K.]

Do you sincerely believe this prison block of a museum looks better than the Telus proposal?

 

[intheknow]

Do you sincerely believe this prison block of a museum looks better than the Telus proposal?

 

ningbo.jpg

Are you aware of the history of the site?

[Mike K.]

Wasn't the Apex site the former Empress laundry facility?

 

I mean, I suppose we could bring that back, or design a giant office building that looks like a laundromat.

[Mike K.]

It had a massive smoke stack, too, that stood taller than the original footprint of the Empress.

 

Maybe we can bring the smokestack back, and call the project Telus Haze.

[REO-eh!]

I think opponents either forget, or hope, nobody notices their tactics are carbon copies of the same strategies we’ve heard for decades. ...

Proponents are likewise using the same strategies and tactics they have used for decades. The barbs and taunts fly back and forth. The opponents have not clearly explained what specific features of the development are acceptable and what features could be changed to win their support. The proponents do not seem interested in discussing specific issues that people take issue with but dismiss them all as NIMBYs. 

 

A few suggestions. Increase the set back from Humboldt St 3-4 m to match the setback of the Aria and avoid the shaded wind tunnel the current proposal will create between it and the hotel. Increase the set back from Douglas St another 2 m to match a build-to line drawn between the Crystal Garden and the Falls. Cut back the triangle that will project into the existing south plaza so the cross walk from the convention centre can continue straight to the public walkways that Aria had to provide across its property. Provide some reticulation on the expansive walls to minimize intrusive sunlight reflection to adjacent buildings. The triangular corners are already cut back on the upper floors so these suggestions would result in minimal loss of useable floor space. The relocated Telus workers would probably feel better knowing that with a few minor changes their neighbours would welcome them into the 'hood!

[Mike K.]

Well, I mean the process has to be the same. But nobody is doing anything under false pretences and there is an expectation of results.

You’re advocating for more setbacks, some councillors are already balking at the height of the existing building, and more setbacks would mean more height, which would mean a potentially rejected project. You have to propose something that will get approved, not just waste time and money. In other words, developers have to put their money where their mouths are or no development happens. The onus is on them to get support from council, but there is no onus for anything among the objectors. They can claim whatever they want with no recourse or expectation to produce the goods.

I mean, we are told a Chinese building reminiscent of a prison would look nicer than the Telus proposal and should be what’s built in downtown Victoria, or Lloyd’s schizophrenic complex, or a giant pickle that stands 150m tall (we don’t know if council will approve 32-storey residential towers but think an office building significantly taller is a better fit. Is that genuine and sincere, or just a cliche kick of the can to create an impression of really liking development, just not ‘this’ development? That’s the point I was trying to make.

[intheknow]

It had a massive smoke stack, too, that stood taller than the original footprint of the Empress.

 

Maybe we can bring the smokestack back, and call the project Telus Haze.

 

Well, talk about missing the point. It seems like the perspective brought to discussions on VV about development in the City boils down to two camps and ONLY two camps, either NIMBYs or YIMBYs. In my view that’s a bit reductionist.  

 

The examples provided were to highlight how architecture should be about a cultural conversation. The Ningbo Museum, yes, a prison like, culturally Chinese building/ the laundry facility- a prison like culturally Chinese facility. The Llyod building, smack dab in the same unique cultural froth the gave rise to Bladerunner and Punk also gave rise to the local architecture. The Gherkin too, uniquely London, launching phase two for City of London’s economic rebirth- and rebranding. The Telus building- a corporate brand stamped across Canada, now coming to your town too- just like McDonalds. 

[Nparker]

I guess some of us don't see this proposal as a "corporate brand stamp" on the CoV.

[Mike K.]

There is no architectural resemblance between Telus Sky, Telus Gardens and Telus Ocean, but to you they are interchangeable. That to me only supplants my suspicion that your critiques and suggestions may not be as sincere as they’re wrapped up to be, and are more or less predicated upon dissatisfaction with the land being redeveloped by Telus.

Telus Ocean is neat. It’s a fine design for a little city and most small cities our size don’t have architecture of that caliber in their downtown cores. And as much as I love D’Ambrosio’s work, how many downtown office buildings need to carry his name? We’ve got four already and a fifth on the way. Diamond Schmitt’s design for Ocean is a breath of fresh air, architecturally.

[intheknow]

I think the building is fine, jobs and you're being insincere- so there- your arguments have no validity. Great convo. All I'm saying is that the building could be a bit smaller per REO-eh's comments and could be a lot more Victoria flavored- like at least try to fit in a little. The site geometry already guarantees a whole hell of a lot of uniqueness - why not also try to advance the culture of Victoria. Basically, Victoria is evolving into this unique and pseudo authentic little hub of high-tech work, beer, bikes and heritage and Telus is elbowing in to put their flag on it. And I think we should collectively demand more- instead of just being fine with it. Is that too much to ask when they are proposing 70% more density than the current zone and are mad rich? 

[Mike K.]

I think the building is fine, jobs and you're being insincere- so there- your arguments have no validity. Great convo. All I'm saying is that the building could be a bit smaller per REO-eh's comments and could be a lot more Victoria flavored- like at least try to fit in a little. The site geometry already guarantees a whole hell of a lot of uniqueness - why not also try to advance the culture of Victoria. Basically, Victoria is evolving into this unique and pseudo authentic little hub of high-tech work, beer, bikes and heritage and Telus is elbowing in to put their flag on it. And I think we should collectively demand more- instead of just being fine with it. Is that too much to ask when they are proposing 70% more density than the current zone and are mad rich? 

 

Your examples were not responsive to the scale you would like, the geometry of the site, or their fit into Victoria's built form.

 

That's what I mean, everyone opposed wants something grand and they'll show you many examples to help visualize what they want, but the examples are almost always out of sync with the reality of the situation.

 

In short, nothing will ever be good enough, so let's not try. That's the end goal of the criticisms. 

[intheknow]

Your examples were not responsive to the scale you would like, the geometry of the site, or their fit into Victoria's built form.

 

That's what I mean, everyone opposed wants something grand and they'll show you many examples to help visualize what they want, but the examples are almost always out of sync with the reality of the situation.

 

In short, nothing will ever be good enough, so let's not try. That's the end goal of the criticisms. 

 

Did you miss the point that those examples were examples of how architecture advances a cultural narrative- not that they were intended to be appropriate for the site? Good luck finding a stock image of something that would be appropriate for the site- represent the culture of this place and that would escape criticism. That's not a productive or fun game. I know its hard to shift a perspective that sees things as either for or against without any nuance, but when it comes to significant investments into the City, in its primary cultural district, by highly capitalized partners - we need to set the bar higher. If not here then where? Let the averageness flow.