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Catalonia independence referendum


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#1 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 08:47 AM

Things are heating up!

 

 

https://www.theguard...um-a-coup-detat

 

http://www.aljazeera...0124214042.html

 

http://www.bbc.com/n...europe-41426023

 


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#2 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:57 AM

42% turnout. 90% yes.

http://nationalpost....otic-referendum
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#3 lanforod

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 08:22 AM

Polls track the population of Catalonia at just under 50% want to secede. If thats accurate, that almost none of the voters who would vote no, actually voted.



#4 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 09:53 AM

I was there briefly over ten years ago. The desire for independence was palpable. Graffiti, posters and stuff. Like Quebec, you hardly ever saw the national flag on display anywhere, just the provincial one. This has been simmering for a long, long time.


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#5 johnk

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 10:02 AM

A long time indeed, it was a major element in the Spanish Civil War. Catalonia took the worst of Franco's Hitler-supported brutality so no surprise that Catalans have a weak identification with Spain. Their language was suppressed and not taught in schools and they have long been the most economically and culturally dynamic of Spain's regions. Catalonia is a nation, defined as a people bound together by common language, history and culture.

#6 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 10:06 AM

Just finished reading Margaret Hamilton's Paris 1919. Catalonia was one of the regions screwed when the big boys were cutting up the old empires and colonies and handing out independence, along with Kurdistan, Vietnam etc.


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"[Randall's] aesthetic poll was more accurate than his political acumen"

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#7 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 10:09 AM

Just finished reading Margaret Hamilton's Paris 1919. Catalonia was one of the regions screwed when the big boys were cutting up the old empires and colonies and handing out independence, along with Kurdistan, Vietnam etc.

 

While in hindsight you can see that some of this stuff went wrong, it had to be done by "the big boys" at the time.  It's a little too easy to be critical 98 years later.  


<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#8 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 11:03 AM

^I think they had good intentions for the most part but it was shockingly arbitrary which regions got chopped up (Austria-Hungary) and which got glommed together (Iraq). And how quickly they made these decisions: five minutes of argument among four guys (three, if the British guy fell asleep or the Italian PM stormed out). Of course oil played a big role.

 

I don't know, some independence movements make sense (Kurdistan) and some (Vancouver Island) are nonsense. I'm not sure about Catalonia.


"[Randall's] aesthetic poll was more accurate than his political acumen"

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#9 nerka

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 02:13 PM

I don't know, some independence movements make sense (Kurdistan) and some (Vancouver Island) are nonsense. I'm not sure about Catalonia.

The further you are away from the local grievances that inflame separatism, generally the less sense most separatist movements make.

 

From a distance the sentiments are often (1) Don't mess with success or (2) Can't they just all get along.

 

If the grievances are in the distant past, there is no history of independence, and the central government effective and democratic a lot of separatism doesn't seem to make much sense. 

 

On that scale Quebec and Scotland are hard to understand, Kurdistan very easy to understand and Catalonia in the middle somewhere


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#10 LJ

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 07:52 PM

I disagree with the violence perpetrated against people just for trying to vote. They were beaten and manhandled just for having the audacity to want to peacefully have their say. Shines a very poor light on Spain. If the Spaniards had tried to convince, cajole, bribe the way we did with Quebec the vote might have been "no" and then the problem is solved for another generation or so, with no violence or ill will.


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#11 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 08:07 PM

I disagree with the violence perpetrated against people just for trying to vote. They were beaten and manhandled just for having the audacity to want to peacefully have their say. Shines a very poor light on Spain. If the Spaniards had tried to convince, cajole, bribe the way we did with Quebec the vote might have been "no" and then the problem is solved for another generation or so, with no violence or ill will.


Perhaps a difference is that if Quebec left it would not take the economic heart of the country.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#12 LJ

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 08:09 PM

No, it would take the economic sewer of the country. 

I was all in favour of the them voting.


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#13 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 06:59 PM

Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain after holding a banned referendum, pushing the European Union nation toward a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy.

 

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont said he favoured mediation to find a way out of the crisis, but that Spain's central government had rejected this. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's government responded by calling on Catalonia to "return to the path of law" first before any negotiations.

 

Mireia Boya, a Catalan lawmaker from the pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy party, said a declaration of independence would follow a parliamentary session on Monday to evaluate the results of the Oct. 1 vote to break away.

 

"We know that there may be disbarments, arrests.… But we are prepared, and in no case will it be stopped," she said on Twitter.

In a televised address on Wednesday night, Puigdemont said: "This moment calls for mediation. We have received various offers in the last hours and we will receive more. All of them know I am ready to start a mediation process."

 

Then he said, "Dialogue and agreement are part of the political culture of our people. However, the state has not given any positive answer to those offers."

 

Without specifically mentioning plans for an independence declaration, he added: "I am sure that in the next few days we will show the best of our country when the institutions of Catalonia will have to apply the results of the referendum.

 

"Today we are closer than yesterday to our historic wish."

 

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...spain-1.4329700


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 04 October 2017 - 07:00 PM.

<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

 



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