563 replies to this topic

[Mike K.]

So we halt train traffic destined for Alberta. Easy peasy.

 

I can't believe these folks are getting into it like this. Just carry on with your projects and let Horgan go through the proper channels to finally get a yay or nay from the courts.

[tjv]

Don't forget to close our ports for any products going to or coming from Alberta

 

I really do wonder how much oil and gas we could get from WA state refineries if they did shut the tap off?

[rjag]

Alberta premier threatens to reduce oil shipments amid pipeline dispute with B.C.

https://globalnews.c...-oil-shipments/

 

Time to send the military in?  I don't think she even has the right as those pipelines are owned by corporations, not the province

 

 

http://business.fina...against-ontario

 

 

 

Since at least the 1970s, the province has had authority to prohibit shipments of energy products outside the province.

Former PC premier Peter Lougheed once cut the volume of crude oil sent to eastern refineries, as part of his epic battle with Ottawa over control of the industry.

Energy Minister Don Getty, later the premier, stopped signing permits for natural gas going down the pipeline to Ontario refineries.

It was a protest against federal policy that discouraged refining in Alberta.

[rjag]

So we halt train traffic destined for Alberta. Easy peasy.

 

I can't believe these folks are getting into it like this. Just carry on with your projects and let Horgan go through the proper channels to finally get a yay or nay from the courts.

 

Mike, that would be suicide for BC. Far more trade from BC goes out through Alberta and if they stop shipping product solely for Alberta, then Alberta would simply close the rail line down.

 

 

Don't forget to close our ports for any products going to or coming from Alberta

 

I really do wonder how much oil and gas we could get from WA state refineries if they did shut the tap off?

 

Cherry Point is at max capacity currently. The only way to squeeze more out would be if the GreeNDP legislated a day now has 25 hours 

 

Looking at $2-$2.50 per litre or more. They would have to enact a state of emergency and limit fuel supplies to emergency responders and transit. The border lineups would be epic and the black market in fuel would be created overnight.

 

Nope, BC is holding the short straw here....something must be happening behind the scenes that isn't public for Alberta to ramp up the noise like this

[Mike K.]

Yeah, I suppose you're right.

 

...when Alberta's NDP government longs for a Liberal government in BC, something is awry.

[VicHockeyFan]

An Alberta election is in the works. That’s all.

[VicHockeyFan]

An Alberta election is in the works. That’s all.

[lanforod]

Jason Kenney would probably play hardball even more with Horgan... 

[jonny]

Notley is simply copying Jason Kenney's idea from last week, who copied the idea from 1980's era Peter Lougheed.

 

I do think it would be hilarious if Alberta shut off the tap. What a screw you to Horgan that would be. How fast would a recall campaign in say, Surrey (spurred by Diane Watts, of course), start up if gas hit $2.50 a litre? 

 

Edmonton refineries supplies 50-60% of the refined products consumed in BC (mostly through TM line 1).

 

The Parkland refinery (used to be Chevron) supplies 20-25% of the refined products consumed in BC (Parkland refines Alberta oil transported via TM line 1). Parkland's capacity has actually gone down recently due to some sort of upgrade, which is the reason gas has hit $1.50. 

 

15-20% comes from refineries in Washington. Up to 25% of the oil refined in Washington comes from Alberta via TM line 1.

 

That is to say, Alberta certainly has some strong cards to play. On whether or not any action by Alberta would be illegal - well, the Provinces that make up our lovely confederation restrict inter-provincial trade in all sorts of ways. How would this be any different? 

Edited by jonny, 09 March 2018 - 09:01 AM.

[tjv]

Cherry Point is at max capacity currently. The only way to squeeze more out would be if the GreeNDP legislated a day now has 25 hours

ok, but correct me if I am wrong but the current pipeline only ships crude product for refineries in WA state and the one in Burnaby?  Therefore if the supply from Alberta stops then WA state would just increase shipments from Alaska or elsewhere for the interm.  The demand and refinery doesn't change, its only the source of the crude product

 

BC Government has zero say in WA state refineries

 

Also what about the capacities of the 2 refineries at Anacortes, one in Tacoma, and one in Ferndale?

[rjag]

ok, but correct me if I am wrong but the current pipeline only ships crude product for refineries in WA state and the one in Burnaby?  Therefore if the supply from Alberta stops then WA state would just increase shipments from Alaska or elsewhere for the interm.  The demand and refinery doesn't change, its only the source of the crude product

 

BC Government has zero say in WA state refineries

 

Also what about the capacities of the 2 refineries at Anacortes, one in Tacoma, and one in Ferndale?

 

They are running at 100% so yes, they could find another tanker from Alaska to make up the shortfall, but in the interim they would ensure that any and all product is reserved for the US market to ensure no issues in Washington State.

[jonny]

Look, we have done this to ourselves. This is just one example of our severely unfriendly attitude towards business and energy investment. We have by far the highest fuel prices in North America. 

 

We are essentially a captive audience in BC. There are more taxes on gasoline in Montreal, but they have lower pump prices. Our gasoline and diesel prices are basically at the whim of Kinder Morgan, Parkland and the CAD/USD exchange rate. Competition is essentially nil. 

 

One aspect that is frequently missed is that KM has said that if Line 2 gets built, Line 1 will focus more on the shipment of refined products. That will certainly increase supply. 

[PraiseKek]

Alberta premier threatens to reduce oil shipments amid pipeline dispute with B.C.

https://globalnews.c...-oil-shipments/

 

Time to send the military in?  I don't think she even has the right as those pipelines are owned by corporations, not the province

 

 

This is exactly what anti-pipeline people want right? What a huge victory for them. No more oil by pipeline from Alberta. Now we can buy it from Saudi Arabia or whatever. 

[jonny]

Except we have minimal infrastructure set up to import crude and only one small refinery...

[Jackerbie]

ok, but correct me if I am wrong but the current pipeline only ships crude product for refineries in WA state and the one in Burnaby?  Therefore if the supply from Alberta stops then WA state would just increase shipments from Alaska or elsewhere for the interm.  The demand and refinery doesn't change, its only the source of the crude product

 

BC Government has zero say in WA state refineries

 

Also what about the capacities of the 2 refineries at Anacortes, one in Tacoma, and one in Ferndale?

 

No, TM transports both crude and refined products. Burnaby receives both crude oil and refined products, and Kamloops receives refined products only. Westridge receives crude oil and around 40% of the jet fuel used by YVR. 

Edited by Jackerbie, 09 March 2018 - 10:29 AM.

[Jackerbie]

^ That YVR note is important, as they are currently going through municipal approvals for a new marine terminal and pipeline through Richmond, which would allow them to import fuel via barge and tanker. Currently they rely on Westridge and Cherry Point in WA. There's an existing pipeline from Burnaby to YVR, but there are also around 40 tanker truck deliveries daily from WA, all going through the Massey Tunnel. They're desperate for more jet fuel sources as it is.

[rjag]

http://www.nrcan.gc....-petroleum/5897

 

 

Edmonton refineries provide about 50-60% of the petroleum product needs in the Vancouver market. The rest of the Vancouver area is supplied either by the Chevron refinery in Vancouver, or with product imports from the U.S. The West has some unique dual product pipelines. Enbridge Line 1 pipeline from Edmonton, Alberta, to Gretna, Manitoba, ships refined products plus natural gas liquids (NGLs) and synthetic crude. TMPL from Edmonton to Vancouver ships refined products plus all types of crude oil. The crude oil leaves deposits of substances, like sulphur, on the pipeline wall as it passes through the pipeline. These can be picked up by the clean products like gasoline that follow the crude oil through the line. Gasoline shipped via TMPL to Vancouver must undergo further treating prior to sale to remove impurities picked up in transit.

[VicHockeyFan]

The guys at the upstream plant loading the pipeline probably play mind games with the receiving refinery by occasionally throwing funny stuff in it, like water or bananas. “Oh ya, try to make jet fuel out of that!”

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 09 March 2018 - 11:22 AM.

[nerka]

I've got a couple of buckets of crude in my garage just in case the SHTF.

[tjv]

They are running at 100% so yes, they could find another tanker from Alaska to make up the shortfall, but in the interim they would ensure that any and all product is reserved for the US market to ensure no issues in Washington State.

That is probably true, unless of course there are agreements in place to supply a certain demand to BC

 

I am all for this pipe line, but I want to see BC benefit in someway.  Right now it seems to be all about Alberta with a few crumbs for BC

 

It sounds like Alberta can shut off the tap on a privately owned and built pipeline, fair enough.  By that definition we can charge any taxes we want when it comes out of the tap at Vancouver harbour.  BC PST, BC Carbon tax, BC go %$%^& yourself Alberta tax.