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Alberta and BC politics


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#401 tedward

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:46 AM

Pipeline opponents like to denounce people as climate change deniers when they say carbon taxes are useless or Canada shouldn't be bearing the load when we produce a tiny fraction of global emissions, yet they are just as quick to use "fake news" as anybody.

 

What is interesting in this whole debate is the way Horgan and this government are being described as "pipeline opponents" with an assumption of, "all or nothing" around one single issue. I heard John Horgan speak last week and he seemed to share my concerns.

 

What I believe:

  1. Pipelines are necessary

    The other options for moving oil are clearly worse.
     
  2. What goes into them is important

    As Horgan said, we should be refining that oil ourselves which not only creates jobs here (in Alberta or BC), but it is easier to clean up if there is a spill.
     
  3. Legal questions are still not settled

    Sure, some First Nations have been convinced to support the project, but each and every one of the affected Nations have legal rights that must be respected. As well environmental protection laws and jurisdiction requires clarification. 

I agree that we cannot just shut down the flow of oil tomorrow, we need to use what we have to transition in the best way possible.
 


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#402 Mike K.

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:51 AM

I wish Horgan was sincere about refining oil. It just reeks of the NIMBYism one-liner we're so familiar with: I support density, just not here.

 

The NDP's future is on the line, make no mistake about it. They've been eclipsed in the polls by the Liberals and 90% of BC residents couldn't point to Tim/Bill/Andrew/Peter Wilkinson if he were standing next to them, that's how badly bungled the political situation is in this province at the hands of the GeeNDP alliance.

 

The Greens, albeit muted, have fallen short on their promises, their leader is behaving exactly the way he said politicians ought not to behave, and British Columbians can't help but feel like they're being used as pawns in a show of political correctness and inter-party politics. What's happening out there is not how you run a province and build an economy.

 

The Liberals screwed up, but the way things are shaking down following the last election folks can't help but feel like our province is being set up to fail and to fail miserably.


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#403 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:56 AM

It’s too expensive to refine oil here. Labour costs and environmental regulations. Refining is best left to the Chinese.
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#404 spanky123

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:57 AM

  1. Legal questions are still not settled

    Sure, some First Nations have been convinced to support the project, but each and every one of the affected Nations have legal rights that must be respected. As well environmental protection laws and jurisdiction requires clarification. 

 

My understanding was that EVERY FN group along the right of way has approved the deal. The ones that are opposed are from other parts of the Province. I guess you can agree what 'affected' means.



#405 Jackerbie

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 08:59 AM

Refining capacity in Canada won't go up anytime soon, if ever. See Jack Knox's column here: http://www.richmond-...-b-c-1.23284863 (Linking to Richmond News, since it won't ding you for viewing TC content for free online  :) )

 

Long story short, in order to increase refining capacity here in Canada we need to convince businesses to locate and invest in Canada. There's a slew of reasons why a petrochemical company wouldn't touch Canada with a ten foot pole, which is why so many of the Big Oil companies have fled. Better to do business in the US, Singapore, Malaysia, or Panama, where the resistance and regulations aren't as debilitating.


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#406 spanky123

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:00 AM

It’s too expensive to refine oil here. Labour costs and environmental regulations. Refining is best left to the Chinese.

 

Article exactly on point in the TC today. Not only are they expensive, but outside of BC there is already excess capacity as well and demand is dropping.

 

http://www.timescolo...-b-c-1.23284624



#407 tedward

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:11 AM

I guess you can agree what 'affected' means.

 

 

I believe that's one of the issues around First Nations that needs clarification. 


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#408 jonny

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:20 AM

What is interesting in this whole debate is the way Horgan and this government are being described as "pipeline opponents" with an assumption of, "all or nothing" around one single issue. I heard John Horgan speak last week and he seemed to share my concerns.

 

Horgan and his government have been appropriately labeled pipeline opponents because they vowed for months on end to stop the Kinder Morgan Trans Mountain Expansion Project using "every tool in the toolkit". 

 

John Horgan stopped stating this once he came into office (Vaughan Palmer figured this out a month or so ago) because he knows he has / is setting BC up for massive lawsuits. If the expansion project does not go ahead, Kinder Morgan, dozens of First Nations and Alberta will be lining up to sue BC for illegally obstructing the construction of a federally approved infrastructure project.

 

A government cannot campaign to kill a legal undertaking. That would be like me running for Mayor on a promise to shut down every fast food restaurant at all costs.


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#409 jonny

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:25 AM

I guess you can agree what 'affected' means.

 

Squamish FN is one of the groups who has taken Kinder Morgan to court, which is just ridiculous. For a tanker laden in Burnaby to directly affect Squamish would take something occurring that's probably less likely than like 1,000 lightning strikes. 



#410 Jackerbie

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:43 AM

Squamish FN is one of the groups who has taken Kinder Morgan to court, which is just ridiculous. For a tanker laden in Burnaby to directly affect Squamish would take something occurring that's probably less likely than like 1,000 lightning strikes. 

 

You're confusing Squamish FN with Town of Squamish. The FN is in North Vancouver

 

Capture.PNG

 

Where things get murky with FN consultation on this project is determining what is included in the scope. Is it just the pipeline itself? Or does it also include all of the resulting transportation activities, too? In this case we seem to have support for the pipeline by the "affected FNs," but opposition to the tankers by coastal FNs.


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#411 jonny

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 09:46 AM

You're confusing Squamish FN with Town of Squamish. The FN is in North Vancouver

 

Thanks for the clarification Jackerbie. 


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#412 Mattjvd

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 12:05 PM

My understanding was that EVERY FN group along the right of way has approved the deal. The ones that are opposed are from other parts of the Province. I guess you can agree what 'affected' means.


Every First Nation who's reserve or treaty lands will be crossed by the pipeline has signed mutual benefit agreements with KM. Some First Nations who's watersheds are in the vacinity of the pipeline, or who are currently negociating treaties on land crossed by the pipeline have not.

As others have mentioned, some coastal First Nations are opposed due to increased tanker traffic. And the BC Assembly of First Nations are in opposition.

#413 LJ

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 07:26 PM

And that increased tanker traffic is going to be there whether or not KM goes ahead. They will simply transport more Alaska crude through the waters so that we will get no benefit from it and no extra spill response resources. The professional protesters are simply helping their American friends sell more of their fossil fuels, which is as it was intended. The simple minded eco wackos who are thinking they are preventing more CO2 from being emitted should be down at Deltaport protesting the round the clock coal shipments going out. While they are there they could take a look at the pipeline YVR is building so that they can import foreign fuel products. 

It's all theater, none of the politicians except for poor old Weaver actually wants to stop any further sales of our resource products be it lumber, coal, oil, NG or anything else. Even Notley realizes you have to sell your products if you hope to provide any income for your province. They pander to their base until they get "forced" into doing something that they don't want to do then shrug their shoulders and "I tried". See Site C.


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#414 Mike K.

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 05:33 AM

It turns out BC’s employee pension investments are backing Kinder Morgan to the tune of US$18M, or over 1.1million shares.

The pension fund is invested into oil with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of stock positions. The province’s pension investment arm, BCI (bcIMC) manages pension investments for 569,000 BC workers. BCI’s largest oil position is US$156M of Exxon.

- http://business.fina...n-kinder-morgan

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#415 grantpalin

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:14 AM

To be fair, the government of the day doesn't control how the fund is invested, the fund management is supposed to be apolitical. Besides, it's a diversified portfolio, as any should be.


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#416 Mike K.

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:16 AM

Oh I agree it is apolitical, but it is in the best interest of its benefactors.

 

And the best interest of its benefactors is a major stake in global oil production.


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#417 jonny

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:26 AM

To be fair, the government of the day doesn't control how the fund is invested, the fund management is supposed to be apolitical. Besides, it's a diversified portfolio, as any should be.

 

It doesn't really mean anything in terms of the GreeNDP government, but it is funny. Especially since one of the arguments against the pipeline expansion is that there's allegedly not business case for the project. The BC pension fund manager sure seems to think there's a sound business case...



#418 Mike K.

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 08:40 AM

BCI purchased over 21,000 shares of Kinder Morgan in the last quarter of 2017.


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#419 grantpalin

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 11:14 AM

Some of the news articles on this though, and the resultant comments, sheesh. People are making it sound like Horgan himself picked the investments and he is thus a hypocrite and tainted with a conflict of interest.



#420 rjag

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 12:03 PM

To be fair, the government of the day doesn't control how the fund is invested, the fund management is supposed to be apolitical. Besides, it's a diversified portfolio, as any should be.

 

For me I see beyond the supposed hypocrisy in this. Its pure optics. But...it also shows that when you take the emotion out of the equation and simply use the data for a business case that BC IMC realizes the potential for its clients.

 

If you took a poll of all the public sector workers whose pensions were affected here and provided them with a list of what BC IMC is invested in along with all the other Union pension plans and showed the 5 & 10 year returns on these investments you wouldn't hear too many folks saying 'divest'. 



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