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Point to Point speed enforcement on the Malahat?


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#1 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:20 PM

The CRD is planning to install "Point to point" speed enforcement on the Malahat.

 

This means that a camera will document the time you pass it at point "A" and then document the time your car passes the device at point "B" and if you have reached point "B" quicker then the pre-set time they have concluded it should take you driving no faster then the posted speed limit, a photo will be taken of your car and plate and you will be issued a speeding ticket.

 

Now naturally this system is going to be loaded with all sorts of problems.

 

First of all in the province of BC, to be legally  issued a "Speeding Ticket"  the speed in which you are traveling has to be documented and proven. This is done with a Radar Gun or a Photo Radar device that has to be tested and authorized prior to it's use for accuracy.  So the first hurdle the government would have to go through is changing the LAWS of BC to accommodate point to point speed enforcement.  You can't just say that because a vehicle started at point "A" at this time and arrived at point "B" at another time that the vehicle was speeding. Their are all sorts of  things that could alter the exact time a vehicle reaches the point "B" such as good road conditions, and little to no traffic congestion etc. This will be a hard one for the CRD to get around if it gets Challenged in court.

 

The second big problem with this proposed system is naturally the huge increase of people coming to dispute their tickets  that it will generate will put that department of our court system into overdrive.

 

Myself being completely against speeding on the Malahat, I don't think that issuing speeding tickets to people with no actual documented proof of the speed in which they were traveling is the right direction to go in.


Edited by Star Dust, 15 February 2018 - 12:31 PM.

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#2 Cats4Hire

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:44 PM

First of all in the province of BC, to be legally  issued a "Speeding Ticket"  the speed in which you are traveling has to be documented and proven. This is done with a Radar Gun or a Photo Radar device that has to be tested and authorized prior to it's use for accuracy.  So the first hurdle the government would have to go through is changing the LAWS of BC to accommodate point to point speed enforcement.  You can't just say that because a vehicle started at point "A" at this time and arrived at point "B" at another time that the vehicle was speeding. Their are all sorts of  things that could alter the exact time a vehicle reaches the point "B" such as good road conditions, and little to no traffic congestion etc. This will be a hard one for the CRD to get around if it gets Challenged in court.

 

"Car X passed Point A at 10:00 and Point B at 10:30 how fast was Car X traveling" is a pretty basic highschool math equation. They'd probably set the time needed to get a ticket assuming clear traffic and that you're able to cruise at the speed limit the whole time. If you're faster than that I don't really see how it's a question on if you're speeding or not (and using the equation I posted just changing the times they can probably figure out exactly how fast you were going too).


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#3 rjag

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:46 PM

It’s not going to improve safety as much as it will improve revenue
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#4 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:48 PM

 (and using the equation I posted just changing the times they can probably figure out exactly how fast you were going too).

 

Sigh.  They can not tell how fast or how slow you were going at any part of the route with only two readers.  Only your (maximum) average speed.  

 

So for example, you could go 40kmh for most of the route, but then speed up to 200kmh on parts.  Depending on the time spent at each speed (distance travelled at that speed), you may or may not get a ticket.  Same if you went 10kmh and 1000kmh.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 15 February 2018 - 12:52 PM.

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#5 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:48 PM

"Car X passed Point A at 10:00 and Point B at 10:30 how fast was Car X traveling" is a pretty basic highschool math equation. They'd probably set the time needed to get a ticket assuming clear traffic and that you're able to cruise at the speed limit the whole time. If you're faster than that I don't really see how it's a question on if you're speeding or not (and using the equation I posted just changing the times they can probably figure out exactly how fast you were going too).

 

Not with exact accuracy. And the Laws of BC state that to be legally issued a speeding ticket an actual accurate SPEED (as in numbers recording the speed your vehicle is traveling)  has to be recorded and documented. And not only that, but the speed in which your vehicle was going has to written and document on the ticket.

 

Based on the point to point system a person could challenge the ticket in court and ask the judge "How fast was I going?" in which the judge would have to reply "I don't know how fast you were going, the speed in which you were traveling was not recorded"  then the person replies "Then how can I be issued a speeding ticket, if you can't prove here in court how fast my vehicle was traveling?" Judge...."Good point, ticket dismissed"

 

The LAWS would literally have to be altered for point to point speed enforcement to be legal in BC


Edited by Star Dust, 15 February 2018 - 12:53 PM.


#6 sdwright.vic

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:50 PM

The problem is we have no road enforcement. We don't want to pay for more cops, and even if we did would they have time to enforce traffic laws. It's okay to automate McDonald's, but not automate the enforcement of traffic speed or even running red lights?
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#7 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:54 PM

It’s not going to improve safety as much as it will improve revenue

 

It will slow most cars down. I'm not sure if that will increase safety, I'd imagine it will in some way.


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#8 lanforod

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:56 PM

It is possible for a judge or cop to say I can't say what your maximum speed was at any given time, but I can prove your average speed was higher than the speed limit, which proves you must have sped for at least a portion of the section.

 

Intent of the law and all that...


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#9 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 12:58 PM

Not with exact accuracy. And the Laws of BC state that to be legally issued a speeding ticket an actual accurate SPEED (as in numbers recording the speed your vehicle is traveling)  has to be recorded and documented. And not only that, but the speed in which your vehicle was going has to written and document on the ticket.

 

Based on the point to point system a person could challenge the ticket in court and ask the judge "How fast was I going?" in which the judge would have to reply "I don't know how fast you were going, the speed in which you were traveling was not recorded"  then the person replies "Then how can I be issued a speeding ticket, if you can't prove here in court how fast my vehicle was traveling?" Judge...."Good point, ticket dismissed"

 

 

Oh, Lord, if your maximum average speed was accurately recorded to be 92.5kmh, then you either did that speed the entire way, or you passed through that speed twice on the route.  Station X and station Y do not record your speed, just when you got there.

 

In the above example, the judge will know with 100% certainty that you drove at 92.5kmh somewhere between point X and Y.  Your only defence is that a spacecraft lifted you off part of it and whipped you along and then dropped you back on.  Barring that defence, you were going that speed at some point (or every point) along that stretch.


Edited by VicHockeyFan, 15 February 2018 - 01:00 PM.

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<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#10 Jackerbie

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:27 PM

The LAWS would literally have to be altered for point to point speed enforcement to be legal in BC

 

There were twelve amendments to the Motor Vehicle Act in 2016, and five amendments last year, most recently in November. Laws change all the time. All the CRD has to do is convince provincial government that the change is warranted.



#11 Bingo

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:33 PM

Drones are becoming so plentiful you could assign one to hover over each car as it transits the Malahat.

The drone could monitor things like distracted driving, drinking while driving, dogs on laps, kidnappings, tail light bulbs out and other less important stuff like speeding.


Edited by Bingo, 15 February 2018 - 01:33 PM.

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#12 lanforod

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 01:44 PM

^ I need a laser turret for my car now.


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#13 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:18 PM

There were twelve amendments to the Motor Vehicle Act in 2016, and five amendments last year, most recently in November. Laws change all the time. All the CRD has to do is convince provincial government that the change is warranted.

 

Keep in mind that I DO Support the reintroduction of photo radar like we used to have back in the 90's based on the fact that the speed of the vehicle getting ticketed is actually clocked and recorded.  Although I don't believe their were stats that proved photo radar caused the amount of speeding in BC to decrease. 

 

Getting rid of photo radar however was an extremely successful campaign promise made by Gordon Campbell to help get his Liberal party elected into power after a 49 year hiatus.  And he delivered that promise on DAY ONE in office.


Edited by Star Dust, 15 February 2018 - 02:18 PM.


#14 rjag

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:37 PM

Photo radar was and is an abysmal failure
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#15 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:43 PM

Photo radar was and is an abysmal failure

 

Financially it was a HUGE Cash-Grab.

 

Personally It had no effect on me because I never speed, but boy did municipalities rake in on it.  

 

That being said it was a well HATED and DESPISED program and Gordon knew it would score him a lot of votes to get rid of it.

 

Their was already talk going on last year to bring it back, so we will have to see if the NDP (who brought it in the last time) will bring it back or not.


Edited by Star Dust, 15 February 2018 - 02:43 PM.


#16 57WestHills

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 02:52 PM

Not with exact accuracy. And the Laws of BC state that to be legally issued a speeding ticket an actual accurate SPEED (as in numbers recording the speed your vehicle is traveling) has to be recorded and documented. And not only that, but the speed in which your vehicle was going has to written and document on the ticket.

....

The LAWS would literally have to be altered for point to point speed enforcement to be legal in BC


Your first paragraph isn't correct. Speed estimates can be used to ticket, and regularly are. Your last paragraph is correct but isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be.
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#17 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:00 PM

Your first paragraph isn't correct. Speed estimates can be used to ticket, and regularly are. Your last paragraph is correct but isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

 

That's not how it went down when I was in Traffic Court and the Cop had to PROVE to the judge that his radar gun was calibrated properly and recorded the correct speed when someone in the court was disputing a speeding ticket.

 

The judge made it perfectly clear that a RECORDED SPEED must be documented to issue a person a speeding ticket. Without that number, you can't find a person guilty of speeding, just as you can't find a person guilty of a crime if the evidence doesn't support the charge.



#18 Mike K.

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:03 PM

If that were true police would never issue speeding tickets while in traffic. They assess your speed relative to their own speed and act accordingly. Nothing is recorded or registered, it's just the cop's word against yours.


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#19 Star Dust

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:15 PM

If that were true police would never issue speeding tickets while in traffic. They assess your speed relative to their own speed and act accordingly. Nothing is recorded or registered, it's just the cop's word against yours.

 

That's why you take your ticket to court (which most people don't) if you think you are in the right and the cop was in the wrong.

 

I've been to traffic court a few times to dispute traffic tickets (not speeding tickets). Basically you are in a court room with 50 people all waiting in line for their turn to dispute their tickets. So you get to sit and watch each case as you wait for your turn. Always lots of people there disputing speeding tickets and yellow light tickets etc. Police indeed have to have a calibrated Radar Device in operation to clock your speed and document it. Some police units can have Radar Devices installed in their vehicles that can record the speed of a vehicle it is traveling behind. But a properly calibrated Speed Radar device must be in use for the ticket to be valid.

 

That being said, anytime you are issued a ticket and don't go to court to dispute it, then the ticket is deemed valid. So lots of people just end up paying tickets that they likely would have gotten out of, if they had gone to traffic court. 

 

Another bonus of taking your ticket to court may not be to have the ticket dismissed, but to have the fine lowered. If you make a case to the judge that your financial situation is not that good the judge will almost always reduce the amount of the fine in half or even more depending on their judgement.  I've seen lots of people that come just to get the fine amount reduced.


Edited by Star Dust, 15 February 2018 - 03:16 PM.


#20 Bingo

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:57 PM

If I spent that much time in traffic court my licence, my car, my job and my relationship would have been long gone.


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