25 replies to this topic

[Gregory Hartnell]

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A discussion on another thread at this website centres on the possibility of Vibrant Victoria morhping into a new municipal party or movement, presumably to open City Hall up to faster processing of higher and denser buildings downtown.

It's frankly not much of a policy book upon which to base a political movement, but I welcome this discussion, nevertheless. Such a new movement would no doubt develop other social, environmental and fiscal policies in the coming months, and would provide a clear alternative to the status quo Liberals and VCE (NDP farm team) now on Council.

There are quite a number of very opiniated writers who frequent this site, but the vast majority of them choose for their own reasons to remain anonymous.

While I have never understood why people would want to hide their identities in this way, particularly when it comes to local politics, I accept this phenonenon as the price one pays for living in a city with a plethora of bureaucrats who have signed oaths of secrecy.

All new democratic movements worth their salt promise more accountability, more open goverment, less red tape, etc. But if this new Vibrant Victoria political movement is ever to evolve out of the larva stage, these writers will have to find the courage of their convictions, and come out, come out, whoever they are.

I write after noting that a certain anonymous writer was wondering whether she should run in the up-coming election. She couldn't find a single person on the present Council to vote for. As a comment, I wrote that she should run herself, and then she could vote for her real persona, which I guessed and then named. My guess must have been close to the mark, as the post was deleted by a zealous moderator.

It takes a certain kind of courage (or madness) to run for elected office. "Anonymous" or "Mr. Floatie" will not be accepted by the Chief Electoral Officer at City Hall. Just ask James Swarok, who was disqualified by the latter officious individual for having tried to pass himself off as the talking turd on a mission to clean up the sewage system.

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[Mike K.]

Vibrant Victoria is morphing into a new political party or movement?

Many of the people who post here are part of a movement that has been around for several years. This movement predates this website by several years. As for morphing into a political party, that's news to me.

The whole premise behind an Internet-based discussion forum is to discuss ideas. Knowing identities of individuals introduces preconceptions, bias and other factors that may get in the way of discussing ideas across a clean slate. Anonymous discussions allow people to speak their mind without worrying about repercussions from individuals who they may work with, or for, or be involved with in one sense or another. This forum is an answer to the political fence-sitting that makes a lot of noise but says nothing. At Vibrant Victoria people are free to speak candidly and present their opinions without fear, which is a medium that many old-school politicos have yet to fully accept.

Mr. Hartnell, you are not obliged to contribute to this discussion forum if you feel that you should be speaking to people who have identified themselves. Although, if that is truly your concern why are your posting your thoughts and opinions in front of an anonymous audience? Surely if this discussion forum carried little legitimacy you wouldn't be contributing, would you?

For the record, several individuals have openly attacked you on this forum. Since we have a policy of focusing on ideas and concepts, not individuals (unless they are elected officials or the topic of a debate), we removed those posts and sent warning to the authors. I'm sure you would have appreciated that had you known about. So now that you're aware of our policy, please focus on issues and ideas, not individuals.

[Gregory Hartnell]

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No one I know likes being the subject of ad hominem attacks, unless one is masochistic, which I am not.

But I do wonder why you would bother deleting nasty comments attacking my person if they were sent anonymously anyway? If they were not sent anonymously, I am perfectly capable of handling the matter. I have a number of distinquished lawyers at my disopsal who have represented my interests in much more serious matters.

As for your suggesting that anonymity affords the hidden writers a certain kind of freedom they would not otherwise enjoy, I suggest you are mistaking freedom with license. True freedom entails the responsibilty to take ownership of one's ideas, and to stand by them. Political ideas promulgated by anonymous posters always have less value because they cannot be attached to particular individuals.

When it comes to municipal politics, people vote for individuals at the ballot box and sometimes those individuals attach themselves to political parties.

It is these courageous individuals who promote good new ideas that resonate with concerned voters that deserve more respect and consideration when the ballot boxes are open.

The rest is no better than idle bar room chatter...

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[Holden West]

Mr. Hartnell, that is far easier for you to say that it is for many of us. Courage! Hardly! Forum anonymity is a tired out argument that has been thrashed around ad nauseum for years elsewhere. It hardly needs to be revived here. Leaving potentially libellous comments up for all to see (only being removed when one has access to powerful attorneys) is laughably irresponsible, pointless and cruel.

Fine. Mr. Hartnell, those that write under their real name are the most courageous folks on earth. I kneel at their feet as I cower behind my fake name in shame. Yes, Mr. Hartnell, you have also written under the nom be plume "Goyo de la Rosa" for many years but obviously your alternate identity is more worthy and pure than mine. There. Happy now?

[aastra]

True freedom entails the responsibilty to take ownership of one's ideas, and to stand by them.

I suspect many of us are here to share and develop ideas rather than to take ownership of them.

If I overhear an interesting conversation on the bus and it sets my thinking in a new direction, does it matter that I didn't get the names of the people whose conversation I overheard?

[Gregory Hartnell]

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I note with interest that Mr. West has either deleted one of his nastier recent comments to me on this thread, or has had it deleted by another moderator. It has been replaced by his latest disrepectful comment above.

As for my use of the moniker 'Goyo de la Rosa' which I have been using since 1988 or so in my occasional publication 'La Rosa,' this is not exactly news to anyone who is familiar with my writing.

However, Mr. West's petulant dissemination of this information enables those who may wish to learn more about my writing to search the web for articles I have written in the past under that moniker, thus enabling those readers to become more familiar with my ideas, and for that, I am truly grateful to him.

As a courtesy to readers at this website, I use only my real name.

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[Holden West]

I edited it myself as I felt it was initially unnecessarily personal.

Posting under a pseudonym permits me to speak more freely than if I were to do so otherwise. Posting under my own name wouldn't cost me my job by any means but it would certainly complicate matters.

Nothing I say is terribly controversial, but I like to speak my mind without worrying too much about the consequences.

I envy your position, Mr. Hartnell.

[aastra]

Nothing wrong with writing under a pseudonym. People have been doing it for centuries. They do it because it tends to facilitate a free exchange of ideas.

[Gregory Hartnell]

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I appreciate that Mr. West is able to publicly admit his error in the comment made at my expense that he subsequently and prudently deleted himself. Very few politicians or even journalists are able to do this, and I commend his courage in doing so.

My original point in starting this thread was to emphasize the difficulty that Vibrant Victoria intellectuals will encounter if they want to build this website into more than a chatroom for apologists for the development lobby, particularly if they continue to post here while maintaining their anonymity.

Of course, if that new movement or party does eventually spring from the fertile disscussions here, people like the lady whose identity I guessed and named will have a huge body of work to refer to when they take off their masks.

It just seems to me that if she is serious about running for office, she should make up her mind, as time is ticking along, and the sonner one commits to running for office, the sooner one is able to establish a political identity or persona in the public's mind.

Certainly her obvious concern for the future of Victoria, her attendance at City Council meetings, her published articles in Focus and other local publications, her refined aesthetic sensibility which is so evident in her critiques of Victoria architecture, and her intellectual rigour would make her a superior candidate to any one of the sorry lot now taking seats in the Victoria City Council chambers.

While I admit that I am not likely to vote for her as long as she champions skyscrapers over nine stories high, I relish the idea of a one-on-one debate between her and Councillor Pamela Madoff. That would likely concentrate Madoff's thinking in a way that no-one else has ever been able to do.

For the record, I hearby publicly announce that I will be seeking the nomination of the Concerned Citizens' Coalition to run for a Victoria City Council seat in the next election.

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[zoomer]

The Concerned Citizens' Coalition...

Definition of concerned:

Adj.: feeling or showing worry or solicitude

Definition of solicitude

noun: - a feeling of excessive concern

You see the Concerned Citizens' Coalition will never be a progressive force in Victoria politics because they are so darned concerned about everthing! They react instead of act, cling to the past instead of embracing the future. Mr. Hartnell, you seem to be a very fearful person, fearful of music you've never heard before, and thus want banned from the city to protect us all. Fearful of buildings greater than 9 stories in height, fearful of ideas and people you don't understand or relate to.

I think you are an intelligent person, I just wish you could focus that in a positive manner. Celebrate the future and what it holds and appreciate the diversity in our city. Good luck in your bid for a seat on City Council.

Sincerely,

John Johnson

[Gregory Hartnell]

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Dear Mr. Johnson:

Perhaps it is both a generational and an aesthetic difference between us which explains my preference for certain types of music over others, and certain styles and heights for buildings in Victoria. I don't think of myself as particulary fearful, except perhaps with regard to nuclear ships coming into Victoria harbour.

As for your wishing me 'luck" (whatever that is) in the upcoming election, I appreciate the sentiment, but it will take a lot more than luck for me to win a seat.

That I know with a certainty...

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[Caramia]

Anonymity is standard on Internet forums. Not all of us are public figures, or want to be. However, most avid posters know who each other are. We meet for dinner, go and photograph the city together, and show up at City Council meetings where we see each other and introductions are exchanged. When we speak out at public meetings we do so as ourselves.

There is nothing cowardly about exchanging ideas on the Internet under a pseudonym. It is common sense, especially for women or young people. When you post on the internet you have no control over who reads it, and there are a lot of weirdoes out there. If you stand up at a city council meeting you can see who is in the room, if there is a guy staring at you with his hand moving frantically under his trench coat, you can make the choice not to stand up and announce your name and address before alerting the security guard. Not so on the internet - the posters are anonymous and so are the readers!

In addition, in contrast to print media, any person from any walk of life can simply google search your name to find any information that is out there on the internet. I generally google any new tenant, bosses google before hiring, and that jilted lover from 10 years ago may well be googling you right now! Annonymity not only protects the poster, but also protects the forum from trolls, and saves the moderators from having to worry about who is a genuine community member and who is just arguing with a poster because they have some beef with them from their personal or professional situation.

If you like media attention and chose to get yourself in the media spotlight as much as possible, that is your choice. But it should not be enforced as a pre-condition for taking part in an internet discussion group of any kind. And to take it into your hands to "unmask" a poster, especially a female poster is extremely irresponsible. It is no one's choice but that poster's when and where and how to associate their posts with their true identity. Since she is the one who takes the risks, she is the one who gets to decide.

Any good moderator on any forum regardless of topic will edit real life information not posted by the person it is about. This is a basic responsibility that evolved for good reason for this new type of media. Respecting anonymity is normal etiquette in this realm. Failing to respect it is a breach of manners and on many forums is a cause for banning.

[aastra]

Everybody talks about imposing height limits but nobody ever talks about altering existing buildings to conform to these hypothetical new limits. What's the point of an extreme height restriction if dozens of existing buildings get a free pass? Tall buildings are bad or they aren't, right?

[m0nkyman]

a chatroom for apologists for the development lobby, particularly if they continue to post here while maintaining their anonymity.

Wow. You sure got my support. :roll:

'Cause nobody could figure out who I am. I'm "anonymous"? Do a google search on m0nkyman.

Calling me and every other regular poster here apologists for the development lobby however is libellous. You really want to go down that road, or you want to start writing an apology?

[Mike K.]

As another member mentioned on this forum, Mr. Hartnell has a history of branding the Coalition's views wherever the opportunity presents itself. With this forum being publicly accessible and growing in popularity everyday, Mr. Hartnell cannot pass up the opportunity to promote the Coalition's views.

Furthermore, is it a coincidence that Vibrant Victoria is now the first place (presumably, seeing as its still two years away) Mr. Hartnell publicly announced his candidacy for 2008?

[aastra]

...apologists for the development lobby...

If we're apologists I dread to think what we'd be saying if we were harsh critics.

[Gregory Hartnell]

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I hearby sincerely apologize to the lady whose true identity I may have briefly exposed in a lighthearted manner. The offending remark has been prudently removed by a consciencious moderator, and I respect the authority of these moderators to police the site in a manner consistent with its policies.

I also apologize to any other reader, regardless of sex, who may have been upset by my ignorance of such a policy. Perhaps a moderator could quote the pertinent policy so that I may better understand the seriousness of this infraction.

Otherwise, I stand by everything else that I have posted here, without equivocation.

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[Caramia]

I'm not a moderator, but for your reading pleasure, a basic site on internet safety...

http://www.wiredsafe... ... index.html

Below, I'll quote a few relavent bits... keep in mind this is a general set of guidelines for internet safety on forums, however you will notice a constant theme advising anonymity (emphasis mine):

Nickname [ID, User ID, Handle, Nick etc.]

This is the name you use to identify yourself to other discussion members. Like your e-mail address, it should be inoffensive, non-identifiable and non-gender specific. Posting under the name, “SexySueSmith17” is just asking for trouble. Try to use a non-provocative Nickname like “BlueBear.”

Profiles

Some online discussion areas allow you to include a profile, a little extra information about yourself. The best way to stay out of trouble is not to fill out a profile at all but if you do decide to include one, be careful what you put there. Adding your age, sex, hometown, school or place of work for example, could place you in danger.

Avatars

These are small images/icons included on some Forums whenever you post, to represent you. Note: REPRESENT! Never use your actual photograph (or anyone else’s) for your Avatar, don’t use a vulgar image and don’t take images from anywhere online that you do not have permission to use because that could be a breach of someone else’s copyright

From the same site is a page on "Nettiquette"

http://www.wiredsafe...netiquette.html

Listed among the 8 Internet No Nos is the following:

* Referring to someone by their real name in a chat room or channel.

Mr Hartnell I invite you to explore other sites dealing with topics of internet safety and manners. One for teens [url=http://www.safeteens.com/safeteens.htm#Newsgroups,_Forums,_and_Bulletin_Boards_0:452ef]Safeteens.net[/url:452ef] but in general, what is safe for teens is also sensible for adults. Of course, because this is an urban discussion site for Victoria, we already disregard some of the advice offered on all these sites, such as - don't list your home town. Since this is such a tight-knit city, we are also likely to introduce each other off the boards as well (another "high-risk" behaviour). However, in taking any risk, it is a matter of personal choice, which is why I spoke so sternly when you posted about having unmasked a lady on this board.

I can certainly see that for a geek like myself who has become steeped in net culture, such a breach seems more serious than for someone who is still getting used to it. I do remember when I first started navigating the net, I found myself constantly making faux pas, or finding some tradition or another confusing. I hope the sites I linked are useful.


Again, this matter of anonymity is not necessarily a matter of board policy but rather a matter of general internet courtesy, a convention that arose to protect the privacy and security of all users.

[Holden West]

Really, this is all common sense. It's like an intimate cocktail party with a few hundred friends and strangers. You don't need to be informed of any rules in order to refrain from insulting the host's clothing, leering at women or peeing on the toilet seat.

If these simple guidelines cramp one's style and desire to make mischief, there's always the [url=http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=2:38b87]Discover Vancouver forum[/url:38b87].

[VicHockeyFan]

^ What? No leering at women? That's my regular MO in social situations.