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2022 City of Victoria Election


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#581 Awaiting Juno

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:19 AM

I think those ships have sailed, though, with respect to converting them back to hotels unless the province intends to get into the hotel industry.

 

I also don't think supportive housing will be in the future what it is today, and any treatment/rehab facilities will be situated in different environments than within urban centres.

 

They'd be better off selling the properties as commercial development opportunities (the zoning is already there) and buying much more land/better facilities elsewhere (ie. in places zoned for long term care/hospital use/community centres).


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#582 spanky123

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:21 AM

I think those ships have sailed, though, with respect to converting them back to hotels unless the province intends to get into the hotel industry.

 

I also don't think supportive housing will be in the future what it is today, and any treatment/rehab facilities will be situated in different environments than urban within centres.

 

We had/have a treatment centre in View Royal. It has/had 40-50 beds and only a handful were ever used. We have normalized drug abuse and addiction and if you talk to most street users they have no desire to get clean. They want free housing and free meals. I don't see what additional treatment centres will accomplish unless we start forcing people to attend them which will never happen.


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#583 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:30 AM

It'll come down to changes to the legal system that allows choice: jail, or long-term institutionalized (and secure) rehab.


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#584 spanky123

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:40 AM

It'll come down to changes to the legal system that allows choice: jail, or long-term institutionalized (and secure) rehab.

 

Which we had and then our high court ruled to be unjust.

 

If you want to help addicts then you need to make the choice to get better less painful then remaining sick. Unfortunately for the addicts, there is too much profit in scrambling their brains and keeping them dependent. 


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#585 spanky123

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:45 AM

They'd be better off selling the properties as commercial development opportunities (the zoning is already there) and buying much more land/better facilities elsewhere (ie. in places zoned for long term care/hospital use/community centres).

 

The homeless want to be close to services and the downtown core. That is why the Province bought hotels and buildings where they did. You can build housing in Saanichton but if nobody wants to be there (ie Woodwyn Farms) then you haven't accomplished anything.

 

The answer really is quite simple. You simply say to the homeless that if they want free services then they need to do something to better their condition (ie treatment, training, etc). If they don't want to do that then back to the gutter they go until they are ready to make the decision. All we are doing is making is easier for people to continue their downward spiral then it is to seek help. There will be no happy ending on that path.


Edited by spanky123, 14 October 2021 - 09:45 AM.


#586 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:47 AM

Which we had and then our high court ruled to be unjust.

If you want to help addicts then you need to make the choice to get better less painful then remaining sick. Unfortunately for the addicts, there is too much profit in scrambling their brains and keeping them dependent.


I don’t think we had a meaningful rehab system then, and it was unjust. You had better care and a better time in prison, by the sounds of it.

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#587 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:48 AM

The homeless want to be close to services and the downtown core. That is why the Province bought hotels and buildings where they did. You can build housing in Saanichton but if nobody wants to be there (ie Woodwyn Farms) then you haven't accomplished anything.

The answer really is quite simple. You simply say to the homeless that if they want free services then they need to do something to better their condition (ie treatment, training, etc). If they don't want to do that then back to the gutter they go until they are ready to make the decision. All we are doing is making is easier for people to continue their downward spiral then it is to seek help. There will be no happy ending on that path.


Exactly.

#588 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:50 AM

Of course the main issue currently is those who want to get clean, are told that’s great, please get in line and we’ll call you in several months. Unless you have a lot of money at your disposal voluntary rehab is non-existent when people need it. I do wonder about the statistics on those who tried to seek help, couldn’t get it, and eventually went down a criminal path to seek drugs, or died from an overdose, or both.

So I suppose the province is avoiding a legal problem by providing these homes with “supports,” for better or worse, but can point to doing something for people in the absence of rehab and/or legal mechanisms that may force rehab on mental health and compassionate grounds. But clearly, the latter is far easier said than done under the current system.

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#589 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 09:53 AM

Of course the main issue currently is those who want to get clean, are told that’s great, please get in line and we’ll call you in several months. Unless you have a lot of money at your disposal voluntary rehab is non-existent when people need it.

Untrue.

You are drinking the cool aid.



We've been doing something that a mother hopes to never have to do.

For one week in August, we called all the drug addiction rehab facilities in British Columbia we could find, pretending to be the mother of "Chelsea", a 16-year-old girl addicted to heroin, or "Dustin", who's 23 and addicted to opioids.

That's how we introduced ourselves to drug recovery homes and detox centres across the province as we looked for help, learning that mothers of adult addicts face a confusing patchwork of options with no clear path.

https://www.cbc.ca/n...umbia-1.3756425


Wait times for a bed range from three to 11 days, with the average being six to seven days.

https://www.timescol...lists-1.5216922

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 October 2021 - 09:56 AM.


#590 m3m

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 10:47 AM

But you have a lot more people coming and going, nobody knows who lives in the building and a lot more people more likely to hold a door open for a stranger milling about waiting to break in.  I know in my building it's a pain to get residents to wait for the garage door to close before driving away, you think AirBnB guests are going to be thinking about that?  

 

In my experience, they do.  Residents are the ones that tend to be lax with the rules.  



#591 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:17 AM

Untrue.

You are drinking the cool aid.



We've been doing something that a mother hopes to never have to do.

For one week in August, we called all the drug addiction rehab facilities in British Columbia we could find, pretending to be the mother of "Chelsea", a 16-year-old girl addicted to heroin, or "Dustin", who's 23 and addicted to opioids.

That's how we introduced ourselves to drug recovery homes and detox centres across the province as we looked for help, learning that mothers of adult addicts face a confusing patchwork of options with no clear path.

https://www.cbc.ca/n...umbia-1.3756425


Wait times for a bed range from three to 11 days, with the average being six to seven days.

https://www.timescol...lists-1.5216922

Sorry, but that’s not true. Your own article states “A day. A week. Seven to eight weeks. Six months. It varies. Timing is everything. People quit, spots come up.”

And I’m referring to someone on the street. Not a child under the direction of parents.

If you want to walk into detox today, it won’t happen unless you have money. And you’ll be waiting a very long time to access a facility, not just a detox bed but a long-term rehab program.

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#592 spanky123

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:19 AM

Of course the main issue currently is those who want to get clean, are told that’s great, please get in line and we’ll call you in several months. Unless you have a lot of money at your disposal voluntary rehab is non-existent when people need it. I do wonder about the statistics on those who tried to seek help, couldn’t get it, and eventually went down a criminal path to seek drugs, or died from an overdose, or both.

So I suppose the province is avoiding a legal problem by providing these homes with “supports,” for better or worse, but can point to doing something for people in the absence of rehab and/or legal mechanisms that may force rehab on mental health and compassionate grounds. But clearly, the latter is far easier said than done under the current system.

 

Then why were there consistently 30+ beds available in View Royal?



#593 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:34 AM

Sorry, but that’s not true. Your own article states “A day. A week. Seven to eight weeks. Six months. It varies. Timing is everything. People quit, spots come up.”

And I’m referring to someone on the street. Not a child under the direction of parents.

If you want to walk into detox today, it won’t happen unless you have money. And you’ll be waiting a very long time to access a facility, not just a detox bed but a long-term rehab program.

My article referenced weeks or months for remote parts of BC. My second one was Victoria. 6 to 7 days.

And they checked for a 23 year old male. Not just kids.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 October 2021 - 11:35 AM.


#594 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:48 AM

My article referenced weeks or months for remote parts of BC. My second one was Victoria. 6 to 7 days.

And they checked for a 23 year old male. Not just kids.


I’m not sure if we’re reading the same thing. Also from your article:

Wait times can be as long as six months for the places in high demand, but many rehabs won't tell you that. They just say a bed is just coming up. The addict must call in every day and try to snag it. Mothers say that can translate into weeks, even months. A call and a failure every day.

This can be devastating as the window of opportunity is crucial — one mother lost her son during the waiting period, as she was denied Suboxone and rehab for him, despite calling every day.


It’s not quite as simple as you might imagine.

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#595 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:49 AM

The second article (I linked 2) was specific to Victoria. And it was 6 days average.

#596 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:51 AM

More about this public “rehab” from your article. This isn’t any more a solution, this system, unless you have large amounts of money:

With adult rehab centres, the quality and range of service is all over the map. A few offer evidence-based medical care, fold in yoga, acupuncture, neuro-feedback and more, and charge a lot of money.

Others adhere to a faith-based, cold turkey boot camp rules approach, and even subsidize the stay. Others are focused on taking your son's social assistance cheque, even to help him set up an account, but don't have much to say about programming.

Off the record, intake workers will warn you off places that are only interested in the cheque. It's difficult to discern over the phone who those are, but they often will accept people high on Suboxone or methadone.

These places are described as "three hots and a cot," only with no real program, rules or concern if your loved one slips.


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#597 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:52 AM

The second article (I linked 2) was specific to Victoria. And it was 6 days average.


Your second article is also seven years old.

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#598 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 11:55 AM

And again, that’s not rehab, that’s a few days of detox that article is talking about. Rehab is a long-term pursuit.

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#599 Mike K.

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 12:01 PM

Then why were there consistently 30+ beds available in View Royal?


It was a failed project that tried to operate as a recovery centre, but it didn’t have the resources to accomplish much. I don’t even know if it’s still open.

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#600 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 October 2021 - 12:19 PM

the view royal project was fully funded. there was no take-up.

I’m not sure what you want the government to do. Most rehab fails anyway.

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

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