Jump to content

      



























Photo

City of Victoria | 2018-2022 | Mayor and council general discussion


  • Please log in to reply
11779 replies to this topic

#10221 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:16 PM

I never suggested the south be "walled off".  I suggested the program should not be applied there.

 

I'm not afraid to say that one of the advantages of living in Broadmead or Uplands or Fairfield or Gordon Head is a general lack of street disorder and crime.  That's one of the favourable attributes of more affluent SFD areas.  And I don't think that bringing crime and disorder into into every community is the solution to crime and disorder.  But to many SJWs that's the "equity" solution they desire.  Make living sh*tty for everyone.

 

Are you saying that townhouses and house-plexes are sources of crime and disorder?



#10222 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,169 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:32 PM

Maybe if Aryze would quit with tactics that are toxic to the neighbourhoods in which they're seeking to develop, maybe their projects wouldn't face such opposition and delays. To be honest, Aryze is probably one of the main reasons people are very hesitant about the missing middle policy as proposed. They push the boundaries beyond what would be eagerly welcomed in the neighborhood and then cry NIMBY when the neighbourhood pushes back. Likely the most antagonistic developer operating in Victoria today.

 

Granted, there are a lot of projects this group has on the go with contention focused around the Foul Bay proposal (all of their other projects are flying under the radar, for the most part), which I don't think is abnormal for proposals in Fairfield/Gonzalez. What Fairfield/Gonzalez is not used to is a developer responding directly to the criticism of a proposal.

 

We know, by following projects over the span of 15 years, that F/G can get pretty worked up about development and community members have punched pretty low over the years but developers have never taken to social media to engage. That changed with Aryze and Foul Bay, for sure.


Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#10223 Victoria Watcher

Victoria Watcher

    Old White Man On A Canadian Island

  • Member
  • 52,302 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:38 PM

Are you saying that townhouses and house-plexes are sources of crime and disorder?

 

Well, it's not quite that simple of course.  The structures themselves do not commit the crimes.

 

But generally, those that cause crime and disorder, especially those they prey on unrelated persons (different, than say domestic violence) live in housing that's on the lower end of the cost scale.   There is overwhelming evidence that this is the case everywhere in the world.  That's why Watts has higher crime rates than Bel Air, just 25 miles away.  It's why the Fresh Prince was sent there to live, to escape the crime and disorder of Philadelphia. 


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 06 December 2021 - 03:42 PM.

  • phx likes this

#10224 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:40 PM

Oliphant/Cook, Heywood/Park, Burdett/Fairfield, Pendergast/Cook, Moss/Fairfield, Kipling/Fairfield*,  Fairfield/Beechwood, Earle/St.Charles, Quadra/Southgate, Cook/Fort

 

All very very contentious projects and then once approved, nobody really complains about them and only one of these was an Aryze project. 

 

In pivoting this back to the relevant policy discussion...part of the reason why approvals are so acrimonious is that people think that through opposition, they can stop the project and things can go back to the way they were. Part of prezoning is that is creates a sense of inevitability that can shift to good design guidelines and housing forms.


Edited by PPPdev, 06 December 2021 - 03:42 PM.


#10225 Nparker

Nparker
  • Member
  • 40,395 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:44 PM

...Part of prezoning is that is creates a sense of inevitability...

I am not sure advocating for a sense of inevitability is the best way to make the case for blanket rezoning. It's bound to make existing residents feel powerless and ignored.


  • Awaiting Juno and Victoria Watcher like this

#10226 Victoria Watcher

Victoria Watcher

    Old White Man On A Canadian Island

  • Member
  • 52,302 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 03:46 PM

In pivoting this back to the relevant policy discussion...part of the reason why approvals are so acrimonious is that people think that through opposition, they can stop the project and things can go back to the way they were. Part of prezoning is that is creates a sense of inevitability that can shift to good design guidelines and housing forms.

 

I agree somewhat.  But "prezoning" doesn't take into account that people moved into - in most cases bought into - certain areas because they like the built form and current zoning.  It's not like prezoning is being done to some bare land site that will be developed into the future.  People are already living and invested in areas and then suddenly they get the allowed character to radically change, and local opposition is not taken into account, or weighed correctly.  

 

I'm happy to see the list of CALUCs that are supportive of this, if and when you assemble it.  However, I know the list will be blank or extremely thin.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 06 December 2021 - 03:50 PM.


#10227 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 04:49 PM

I am not sure advocating for a sense of inevitability is the best way to make the case for blanket rezoning. It's bound to make existing residents feel powerless and ignored.


I don’t think so, over 8,000 residents were consulted during the OCP and supported diversity housing by a long shot. During the Gonzales Neighbourhood Plan, 78% of responses strongly supported houseplexes and townhouses. There is still consultation to be had on the design guidelines to ensure comparability.

But to your point and VW latest post, at what point did we enshrine CALUC’s and current residents as having approval powers over neighbourhoods? It goes back to an early question of mine, whose voice is most important? Those already with housing security or those without? Future residents? There is little evidence that restrictive zoning benefits anybody but the current residents who see tax-free appreciation through artificial housing scarcity, one could argue they are biased out due to financial interests.

Once again, it’s not about punishing existing areas, it’s about making room for the needs of others and if that ‘costs’ you something, then as a society we need to acknowledge that it’s worth it for the sake of others.
  • gstc84 likes this

#10228 Victoria Watcher

Victoria Watcher

    Old White Man On A Canadian Island

  • Member
  • 52,302 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 04:59 PM

But to your point and VW latest post, at what point did we enshrine CALUC’s and current residents as having approval powers over neighbourhoods? It goes back to an early question of mine, whose voice is most important? Those already with housing security or those without? Future residents? There is little evidence that restrictive zoning benefits anybody but the current residents who see tax-free appreciation through artificial housing scarcity, one could argue they are biased out due to financial interests.

Once again, it’s not about punishing existing areas, it’s about making room for the needs of others and if that ‘costs’ you something, then as a society we need to acknowledge that it’s worth it for the sake of others.

 

Well, I think it's a democratic way to give the people a say over how our own city or neighbourhood is shaped.

 

"Current residents who see see tax-free appreciation" also pay very heavy property taxes.  The highest.  And in return they also burden the City with less policing and other social costs.   That's a pretty big win for the City.  Residents of 844 Johnson are not paying the property taxes that support their daily police visit.  The residents of Rockland are paying for that.



#10229 Nparker

Nparker
  • Member
  • 40,395 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:17 PM

... it’s about making room for the needs of others and if that ‘costs’ you something, then as a society we need to acknowledge that it’s worth it for the sake of others.

This sounds like something out of the Lisa Helps handbook on How to Achieve Consensus that Makes No One Happy* otherwise known as It's a Lose-Lose Situation.

* Chapter 5: Reconciliation is supposed to be painful



#10230 Banksy

Banksy
  • Member
  • 156 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:22 PM

Maybe if Aryze would quit with tactics that are toxic to the neighbourhoods in which they're seeking to develop, maybe their projects wouldn't face such opposition and delays. To be honest, Aryze is probably one of the main reasons people are very hesitant about the missing middle policy as proposed. They push the boundaries beyond what would be eagerly welcomed in the neighborhood and then cry NIMBY when the neighbourhood pushes back. Likely the most antagonistic developer operating in Victoria today.

Aryze's optics dilemma is the group of condescending people who circle their wagons around Aryze on social media and attack people who say things critical of Aryze projects and their opinions on urbanism. Aryze does not see how bad these ambassadors are for their corporate image.


  • Awaiting Juno and Vicrazy like this

#10231 Tom Braybrook

Tom Braybrook

    tom braybrook

  • Member
  • 1,578 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 05:45 PM


Once again, it’s not about punishing existing areas, it’s about making room for the needs of others and if that ‘costs’ you something, then as a society we need to acknowledge that it’s worth it for the sake of others.

 

that's what Vladimir Lenin said;

 

https://www.youtube....__Z-Z_Ofs&t=84s


  • A Girl is No one likes this

#10232 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:23 PM

Aryze's optics dilemma is the group of condescending people who circle their wagons around Aryze on social media and attack people who say things critical of Aryze projects and their opinions on urbanism. Aryze does not see how bad these ambassadors are for their corporate image.


We definitely critique opinions on urbanism but don’t attack people personally, if you have examples please email them to me and if you have advice, please send that over as well: info@aryze.ca

If you want to bash us publicly, sounds like a fun party 🤣

#10233 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:24 PM

Well, I think it's a democratic way to give the people a say over how our own city or neighbourhood is shaped.

"Current residents who see see tax-free appreciation" also pay very heavy property taxes. The highest. And in return they also burden the City with less policing and other social costs. That's a pretty big win for the City. Residents of 844 Johnson are not paying the property taxes that support their daily police visit. The residents of Rockland are paying for that.


Average single family home has gone up more then $300k in value over the last 18mo and has paid $9,000 in property taxes during that time, you think that is parity?

#10234 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:29 PM

This sounds like something out of the Lisa Helps handbook on How to Achieve Consensus that Makes No One Happy* otherwise known as It's a Lose-Lose Situation.

* Chapter 5: Reconciliation is supposed to be painful


Who are the parties in this lose/lose scenario? Current residents/Newly Housed Residents ?

#10235 PPPdev

PPPdev
  • Member
  • 393 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:29 PM

This sounds like something out of the Lisa Helps handbook on How to Achieve Consensus that Makes No One Happy* otherwise known as It's a Lose-Lose Situation.

* Chapter 5: Reconciliation is supposed to be painful


Who are the parties in this lose/lose scenario? Current residents/Newly Housed Residents ?
  • PPPdev likes this

#10236 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,169 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 06:57 PM

Average single family home has gone up more then $300k in value over the last 18mo and has paid $9,000 in property taxes during that time, you think that is parity?

 

That's a tricky argument, though, as housing prices can just as easily fall.

 

I wouldn't want society to pursue, then bail out, homeowners as market pendulums sway.


  • Awaiting Juno likes this

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#10237 Mike K.

Mike K.
  • Administrator
  • 83,169 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:02 PM

If we're honest with ourselves, we can talk about average GHG emissions, travel times, other costs, etc. of suburban housing, but that is not going to solve the issue of housing costs.

Today's condo average cost is $649k. Single-family-homes averaged $649k in 2015.

The biggest factor impacting housing costs in our region appears to be the urban containment boundary, and the lack of SFD development in this region. All other forms of housing rapidly rise when SFDs rapidly rise in value, because tapped out buyers turn to the next best thing (SFD -> townhome -> large condo -> medium condo -> small condo).

Know it all.
Citified.ca is Victoria's most comprehensive research resource for new-build homes and commercial spaces.


#10238 Tom Braybrook

Tom Braybrook

    tom braybrook

  • Member
  • 1,578 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:26 PM

 There is little evidence that restrictive zoning benefits anybody but the current residents who see tax-free appreciation through artificial housing scarcity, one could argue they are biased out due to financial interests.

 

I guess you could say current residents are biased...but assuming they purchased there home in anticipation of huge future financial gain is a bit of a leap. I mean, that may be how you think, but my wife and I bought our house eight years ago because we liked the neighbourhood, the location, proximity to amenities, etc. - that is why I said we bought a home, not a house. We do not speculate in real estate. We do not make a living in land development. - If you are looking for bias in this discussion you may want to look in a mirror.

 

Your firm may be as altruistic as your concern over housing those that have difficulty accessing the Victoria market may in fact be as real as it would seem - but would you agree that a buliding concern has as much a fiduciary interest in seeing blanket rezoning approved as current residents have in seeing it not. 

 

I am not sure insinuating that every homeowner in Victoria is a greedy land baron is a viable argument - some might even resent it.


  • Midnightly, Awaiting Juno, A Girl is No one and 3 others like this

#10239 Nparker

Nparker
  • Member
  • 40,395 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:26 PM

...All other forms of housing rapidly rise when SFDs rapidly rise in value, because tapped out buyers turn to the next best thing (SFD -> townhome -> large condo -> medium condo -> small condo).

Exactly. It's not as though redeveloping every existing SFD lot in Fairfield into 8 townhouses would mean those units would sell for $250,000.



#10240 Tom Braybrook

Tom Braybrook

    tom braybrook

  • Member
  • 1,578 posts

Posted 06 December 2021 - 07:36 PM

I don’t think so, over 8,000 residents were consulted during the OCP and supported diversity housing by a long shot. During the Gonzales Neighbourhood Plan, 78% of responses strongly supported houseplexes and townhouses. There is still consultation to be had on the design guidelines to ensure comparability.

 

I shouldn't think it necessary to point out that the results of a "consultation" depend very much on the questions asked - so 78% support may or may not a genuine number.

 

Blanket zoning is just plain lazy planning.

 

You have given many examples of projects that have been approved under the current system. You and others remarking here have agreed that streamlining existing process would go a long way towards a better system. So do that first! Sure it will take time - some things do. But leapfrogging past existing process to institute some form of blanket zoning is, I will say it again, just plain lazy planning.

 

It may yield faster results...but will it yield BETTER results?


  • Awaiting Juno, Vicrazy and Teardrop like this

You're not quite at the end of this discussion topic!

Use the page links at the lower-left to go to the next page to read additional posts.
 



7 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 7 guests, 0 anonymous users