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A beginners guide to Central Planning aka communism


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#1 rjag

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 08:57 AM

This is a short but fascinating description of how communism collapsed due to basic economics. I wonder how much of this our socialist neighbours here subscribe to?

 

https://humanprogres...ticle.php?p=407

 

Of course, not everyone was equally affected by shortages. Government officials and their families could generally avoid the daily hardships of life under communism by having access to special shops, schools, and hospitals. Communism started as a movement for greater equality. In reality, it was a return to feudalism. Like feudal societies, communist societies had an aristocracy composed of the communist party members. Like feudal societies, communist societies had a population of serfs with limited or no rights and little possibility of social mobility. Like feudal societies, communist societies were held together by brute force.

 

 

 



#2 Mike K.

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 09:28 AM

Yup.

If you joined the party life would get easier, for sure. Out west the concept of joining the party is equated with becoming politically involved. But under communism it meant pledging allegiance to the ruling class. I just thought I’d throw that in there as the term can be easily misinterpreted.

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#3 amor de cosmos

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 09:32 AM

it makes just as much sense when written like this
 

Of course, not everyone was equally affected by shortages. Government officials and their families could generally avoid the daily hardships of life under capitalism by having access to special shops, schools, and hospitals. Capitalism started as a movement for greater equality. In reality, it was a return to feudalism. Like feudal societies, capitalist societies had an aristocracy composed of the capitalist party members. Like feudal societies, capitalist societies had a population of serfs with limited or no rights and little possibility of social mobility. Like feudal societies, capitalist societies were held together by brute force.


the writer mentions venezuela at the beginning but attributes its economic problems to 'socialism' rather than the attempts at economic strangulation, as they did to cuba, and are trying to do to iran & russia. those countries' economic problems never seem to be attributed to deliberate US actions even though that's their stated goal.
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#4 spanky123

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 09:41 AM

^ There is no doubt that some people struggle under any political system. At least under capitalism most people have a chance of achieving success. Under socialism your status in society is predetermined. 



#5 amor de cosmos

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:00 AM

simple google search for 'us social mobility' finds this, and other similar stories. see for yourself, there are many others like this in publications from huffington post & the guardian to forbes & world economic forum. one funny thing about this economist chart of the day is this bit:
 

But Mr Alesina and his colleagues also find that people of different political stripes also respond differently to new information. When given pessimistic information about social mobility, left-wing respondents became even more likely to support economic redistribution. In contrast, right-wing respondents’ support for redistribution did not change. Perhaps, the authors suggest, right-leaning respondents see government as “the cause of the problem, not the solution”.

 

Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

But in Europe, climbing the ladder is easier than most people believe

https://www.economis...n-their-country

#6 RFS

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:02 AM

simple google search for 'us social mobility' finds this, and other similar stories. see for yourself, there are many others like this in publications from huffington post & the guardian to forbes & world economic forum. one funny thing about this economist chart of the day is this bit:
 
 
https://www.economis...n-their-country

That American optimism is a key aspect of what makes them great.  And vice versa with European pessimism. 

 

I read something interesting that adjusted for purchasing power parity, France would be the poorest state in the US, behind Alabama, yet taxed the highest.  No wonder they are rioting in the streets 



#7 amor de cosmos

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:24 AM

do you have a link for that, because there's a table on wikipedia using IMF data that says France's PPP is roughly equivalent to California's or Hawaii's
https://en.wikipedia...es_by_GDP_(PPP)

#8 RFS

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:44 AM

do you have a link for that, because there's a table on wikipedia using IMF data that says France's PPP is roughly equivalent to California's or Hawaii's
https://en.wikipedia...es_by_GDP_(PPP)

This was the article I had read 

https://blogs.specta...an-mississippi/

 

Either way I would rather live in Alabama or Missouri or any other "poor" state than France.  At least you have open space and can live in peace with a semblance of dignity and manhood 



#9 rjag

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 10:46 AM

it makes just as much sense when written like this
 
 

 

How many people attempted to escape their capitalist govt for the security of a communist govt? How many were shot or imprisoned when caught?

 

The reason I posted this topic was in response to Isitts bizarre ideology and to bring what he preaches into perspective


Edited by rjag, 10 December 2018 - 10:47 AM.

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#10 Jason-L

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:39 AM

How many people attempted to escape their capitalist govt for the security of a communist govt? How many were shot or imprisoned when caught?

 

The reason I posted this topic was in response to Isitts bizarre ideology and to bring what he preaches into perspective

Wikipedia has a list of defectors: https://en.wikipedia..._Bloc_defectors

 

Not sure how many were shot and imprisoned, though.



#11 jonny

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:47 AM

Wikipedia has a list of defectors: https://en.wikipedia..._Bloc_defectors

 

Not sure how many were shot and imprisoned, though.

 

The first guy I clicked on, Edward Howard, seemed to have died from a broken neck "after a fall in his home"...

 

..... 

 

Odd. 



#12 Mike K.

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:06 PM

simple google search for 'us social mobility' finds this, and other similar stories. see for yourself, there are many others like this in publications from huffington post & the guardian to forbes & world economic forum. one funny thing about this economist chart of the day is this bit:
 
 
https://www.economis...n-their-country

 

It absolutely boggles the mind how immigrants who arrive on our shores with no money, little to no English and no supports can so rapidly climb from the lowest rung of the ladder to an upper-middle class existence, while the "news" tries to tell us upwards mobility in North America is a fabrication or a misrepresentation.

 

Some of the wealthiest Victorians fall into the category I described above. Against all odds (if we listen to so-called experts telling us social mobility is a lie) tens of thousands of immigrants arrived on Vancouver Island during the second half of the 20th century and created fortunes from literally nothing. These are the people who clean toilets, hotels and offices. They work two, three even four jobs. Midnight shifts, Christmas shifts, nine, ten even 14 days without a break, sometimes 18 hour days. They work. They save. They work. They save. Even in expensive regions like Victoria and Vancouver these individuals rise to the top.

 

But then along comes an expert who says social mobility is a scam.


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#13 spanky123

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:34 PM

^ In the "victim culture" that the socialists and MSM are attempting to promote, your lack of ability to achieve anything is due to someone else's fault. 


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#14 Baro

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 01:18 PM

This was the article I had read 

https://blogs.specta...an-mississippi/

 

Either way I would rather live in Alabama or Missouri or any other "poor" state than France.  At least you have open space and can live in peace with a semblance of dignity and manhood 

 

There's a lot of interesting takes in this thread but I just have to comment on this one.  There's vast swaths of France that have very comparable population densities and general rural/natural charm as those two listed states, in fact some departments even have lower population densities.  There's even a large number of rugged dignified manly men there in such places.  Just like not every city in the US is New York, not every city in France is Paris.  You'll find the whole spectrum of settings, lifestyles, and politics in a country as big as France.

Not a lot of countries in europe have as much nature or vast under-populated rural regions as France.


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#15 rjag

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 01:21 PM

Wikipedia has a list of defectors: https://en.wikipedia..._Bloc_defectors

 

Not sure how many were shot and imprisoned, though.

 

Yup so few that they can name them!

 

https://www.thecrims...undred-million/

 

As opposed to the 100 million that died in the last 100 years



#16 SgtNeonPanda

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:09 PM

It absolutely boggles the mind how immigrants who arrive on our shores with no money, little to no English and no supports can so rapidly climb from the lowest rung of the ladder to an upper-middle class existence, while the "news" tries to tell us upwards mobility in North America is a fabrication or a misrepresentation.

I think the key point here is that you've lumped North America into one column. Social mobility between Canada and the US are almost at opposite ends of the spectrum. Someone at the' bottom' in Canada is twice as likely to move out of poverty as in the US. I'd venture that most non-partisan economists would use Canada as a preferred economic model in its mix of free-market capitalism and government intervention, although there are obvious differences between provinces.

 

https://www.national...-policy-canada/

https://milescorak.c...tates-compared/

 

Even the definition of economic freedom is debatable. In many measures, Canada rates higher than the US. In terms of government spending-to-GDP ratios, Canada and the US are *very* close -- ~40%. The spending is just allocated very differently between the two countries.

 

https://www.heritage.../country/canada

https://en.wikipedia...rnment_spending



#17 Mike K.

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:19 PM

And yet there are 10 million more immigrants residing in the United States than there are people in all of Canada, and the US has been the top destination for immigrants since the mid-20th century.

 

Someone with aspirations to succeed is not limited by perceived notions of economic mobility or immobility, regardless of who they are and where they came from. In fact some of the wealthiest Americans and Canadians are themselves immigrants who started at the bottom and worked their way up. Unlike in many places in the world, their religion/ancestry/ethnicity/income/education played no role in hindering them.


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#18 SgtNeonPanda

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:25 PM

It's the myth of the American dream that attracts many, rather than the actual ability for it to occur.

 

I just find it bizarre that you use a few anecdotal examples of people who managed to start off poor, immigrant or not, and became rich. Statistically, of course that will happen. However, the data shows that it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does in most other OECD countries.

 

I didn't even mention race or immigration in my comments. My stats are aggregate data for the entire population. If you drill down by race, you'll find an even larger discrepancy with social mobility indicators, especially due to the different types of immigrants each country takes. There's also large differences in social mobility between different races -- a poor black kid has a much lower chance of moving into a higher socioeconomic class than does a poor Asian kid, for example.

 

Just because racism may not be permissible legally, doesn't mean that institutional policies don't disproportionately affect particular races. Look at the outcomes of several lawsuits in the US related to voter ID laws, redistricting, or other electoral changes -- in many cases the courts have found changes for made for racial reasons. Similarly, the DOJ has found the implementation of law enforcement by police to be racially motivated. These are conclusions found by legal experts, not partisan advocacy groups. While we can argue over the degree race/ethnicity etc play roles in social mobility, to say it has no effect at all, is disingenuous. It may have less impact in Canada than the US but it certainly also occurs here.


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#19 Mike K.

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:53 PM

The dream is life in America.


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#20 rjag

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:35 PM

Its interesting that the topic has managed to switch itself to how bad America is and manage to ignore the plight of millions of people living under communism and ignore that in order to show that if you're poor in the US you have very little chance of changing that....yet whats not mentioned that even if you are poor in the US you have a far higher standard of living than a great many people living in communist countries or other countries run by despots. 



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