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A beginners guide to Central Planning aka communism


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#21 Mattjvd

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:38 PM

Obesity is an epidemic, primarily among the poor in North America. Pretty incredible that our many of our poorest still have excess food.



#22 Mike K.

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:16 PM

It boggles to mind how we can live in a city where a refugee from Somalia has been elected to govern over the Capital of British Columbia while being told that achievement by immigrants is statistically insignificant.


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#23 Wayne

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:00 PM

RFS, on 10 Dec 2018 - 10:44 AM, said:

 

 

Either way I would rather live in Alabama or Missouri or any other "poor" state than France.  At least you have open space and can live in peace with a semblance of dignity and manhood 

 

Been to Alabama and Missouri (and much of the south eastern states) I would take France any day. In particular South France which is distanced from the BS of Paris.

 

Granted that as 20 years ago.


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#24 rjag

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:11 PM

Been to Alabama and Missouri (and much of the south eastern states) I would take France any day. In particular South France which is distanced from the BS of Paris.

 

Granted that as 20 years ago.

 

Hmmm french food, beaches and wine (and the sights on those beaches...ooh la la!!!)



#25 LJ

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:21 PM

Hmmm french food, beaches and wine (and the sights on those beaches...ooh la la!!!)

You would take that over the sights of obese Alabamians in Walmart? What's the matter with you?


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#26 Jason-L

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 11:03 PM

It boggles to mind how we can live in a city where a refugee from Somalia has been elected to govern over the Capital of British Columbia while being told that achievement by immigrants is statistically insignificant.

To be fair, that one person elected represents 1 in 3317 people running in the 2018 voting, so represents .03% of the outcomes.  Which is pretty much the definition of statistically insignificant and once of the reasons why ancedotal evidence is not considered data.

 

He's also 1 in 515 of those elected, so 0.2% of those elected... again, statistically insignificant.  EDIT: Whoops, that's 1 in 515 non-incumbents.  It's 1 in 1639 of those elected, so 0.06% of the results.

 

(math may be a little bit off, I'm a bit sleepy)

 

Also, totalitarian governments and governments based on cults of personality have bad track records.  They have since ancient times.  It's unfortunate that they've also often claimed to be communist, but seem to operate more as oligarchies or dictatorships than communes.


Edited by Jason-L, 10 December 2018 - 11:08 PM.

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#27 Mike K.

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 05:52 AM

There were 29 candidates for Victoria council.

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#28 Jason-L

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:22 AM

There were 29 candidates for Victoria council.

Okay, so the candidate represents 3% of the pool... well within the margin of error and only marginally more statistically relevant.

Just because I won on a Scratch & Win yesterday, it doesn't indicate a trend of me winning on all Scratch & Wins going forward.



#29 Mike K.

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:29 AM

Politicians are re-elected based on their performance as a politician, not a random selection process or a random draw (like a lottery ticket).

 

There was nothing random about Dubow's win, is what I'm saying. He took the initiative, ran a successful campaign and won over the electorate.


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#30 Jason-L

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:08 AM

Politicians are re-elected based on their performance as a politician, not a random selection process or a random draw (like a lottery ticket).

 

There was nothing random about Dubow's win, is what I'm saying. He took the initiative, ran a successful campaign and won over the electorate.

Oh sure, I'm not arguing that it was random or that he didn't run a successful campaign.

I'm saying that his success is statistically insignificant as an indicator of the overall success of Somali refugees in Canada.  Even Ahmed Hussen's success is statistically insignificant as an indicator of the overall social mobility of Somali refugees.



#31 Guest_DortDaHier_*

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 08:47 AM

That's quite a questionable topic



#32 Mike K.

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:36 AM

Oh sure, I'm not arguing that it was random or that he didn't run a successful campaign.

I'm saying that his success is statistically insignificant as an indicator of the overall success of Somali refugees in Canada.  Even Ahmed Hussen's success is statistically insignificant as an indicator of the overall social mobility of Somali refugees.

 

So how many Peruvian-Canadians are on council?

 

What about Australian-Canadians?

 

If the issue is Canada and North American only masquerade as places of opportunity and upwards mobility is no more than a marketing gimmick, how do we square the rise of Dubow? He took the opportunities this country presented him and didn't care for statistics or expert analysis. He just went ahead and did it and is literally an antithesis to the narrative that if you're different in our culture you won't succeed, but in truth the biggest obstacle to success in our society is ourselves and he proves that point.


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#33 tjv

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 09:56 AM

I think George Orwell summed it up pretty well in Animal Farm, even a 10 year old could understand the basics

 

The quote I always remember from the book is "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" which sums up communism nicely in one sentence


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#34 tedward

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:29 AM

^ There is no doubt that some people struggle under any political system. At least under capitalism most people have a chance of achieving success. Under socialism your status in society is predetermined. 

 

Anecdotes about people who manage to change their status in society does not change the fact that for the vast majority of people in Canada and the United States your status in society is determined at birth.Your health, education, opportunities to advance, are all heavily influenced by how much your parents (or grandparents or great-grandparents) own. 

Income-inequality is the highest it has been in a Century and <sarcasm> for some reason </sarcasm> social mobility is lower than it was when we had strong labour unions and socialist programs like low-cost post-secondary education.

What we are seeing is a modern feudalism and monopolies under the guise of capitalism.

 

 

The quote I always remember from the book is "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" which sums up communism nicely in one sentence

 

To suggest that it somehow doesn't describe modern capitalism as well is disingenuous. What made Orwell angry, and was clear to me as a 10-year-old, was that the pigs had betrayed the other animals and were behaving just like the farmer they had rebelled against.

The lesson was that power corrupts, not that we should stop trying to make the lives of everyone better.
 

 

Obesity is an epidemic, primarily among the poor in North America. Pretty incredible that our many of our poorest still have excess food.

Obesity on this scale is not an excess of food. It is an excess of empty calories caused primarily by an excess of sugar (mostly in the form of high fructose corn syrup) found in pre-prepared food.

In order to eat a home-cooked, nutritious meal, you need the facilities to store and cook it, you need time and energy to shop for and prepare it, and you need the knowledge and training to do all those things. People working two or more part-time jobs can only grab what food they can that is cheap and available. 
 


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#35 RFS

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:40 AM

Socialism/communism is terrible, in a brutal, violent way.  Modern corporate consumerist capitalism is also terrible in an atomizing, soul-crushing way.  A third way of economic nationalism where the market economy exists to serve the nation and the people, and culture and family are given priority would be my preference.  What is the point of a gdp increase if people are miserable, drug-addicted, suicidal, not having kids, not growing up, not experiencing any form of community or social cohesion.  



#36 rjag

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:48 AM

Anecdotes about people who manage to change their status in society does not change the fact that for the vast majority of people in Canada and the United States your status in society is determined at birth.Your health, education, opportunities to advance, are all heavily influenced by how much your parents (or grandparents or great-grandparents) own. 

Income-inequality is the highest it has been in a Century and <sarcasm> for some reason </sarcasm> social mobility is lower than it was when we had strong labour unions and socialist programs like low-cost post-secondary education.

What we are seeing is a modern feudalism and monopolies under the guise of capitalism.

 

 

 

To suggest that it somehow doesn't describe modern capitalism as well is disingenuous. What made Orwell angry, and was clear to me as a 10-year-old, was that the pigs had betrayed the other animals and were behaving just like the farmer they had rebelled against.

The lesson was that power corrupts, not that we should stop trying to make the lives of everyone better.
 

 

Obesity on this scale is not an excess of food. It is an excess of empty calories caused primarily by an excess of sugar (mostly in the form of high fructose corn syrup) found in pre-prepared food.

In order to eat a home-cooked, nutritious meal, you need the facilities to store and cook it, you need time and energy to shop for and prepare it, and you need the knowledge and training to do all those things. People working two or more part-time jobs can only grab what food they can that is cheap and available. 
 

 

 

What society doesnt determine your status at birth? That statement comes in many guises, from race, religion, to colour to the grand-daddy of them all education and socio-economic.

 

You dont see that we have come so far in the last 75 years since WW2 and we have more people eating better and earning more and its only going to keep improving

 

Wages

https://humanprogres...&yl=2017&high=1

access to electricity

https://humanprogres...&yl=2016&high=1

Are we poorer than our parents - this is an excellent article 

https://humanprogres...icle.php?p=1554

 

and of course there is this which goes against all the socialist anti-globalization ethos

https://humanprogres...icle.php?p=1528

 

 

The World Bank has just released its latest numbers, and according to them, the proportion of the world population in extreme poverty, i.e. who consume less than $1.90 a day, adjusted for local prices, declined from 36 percent in 1990 to 10 percent in 2015.

 

Even though world population increased by more than two billion people, the number of extremely poor was reduced by almost 1.2 billion. It means that in the now much-despised era of globalization, almost 130,000 people rose out of poverty every day.

 

Every one of those 130,000 represents another individual who get closer to a decent life with basic education, access to health care and opportunities in life. This is the greatest achievement in human history.

 


Edited by rjag, 11 December 2018 - 11:01 AM.


#37 Mike K.

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:58 AM

There are children of millionaires who die from heroin overdoses on the streets of our cities and there are children of once-penniless immigrants who become doctors, scientists or wealthy businessmen/women.


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#38 tjv

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 11:25 AM

Anecdotes about people who manage to change their status in society does not change the fact that for the vast majority of people in Canada and the United States your status in society is determined at birth.Your health, education, opportunities to advance, are all heavily influenced by how much your parents (or grandparents or great-grandparents) own. 

Income-inequality is the highest it has been in a Century and <sarcasm> for some reason </sarcasm> social mobility is lower than it was when we had strong labour unions and socialist programs like low-cost post-secondary education.
What we are seeing is a modern feudalism and monopolies under the guise of capitalism.

I am sorry, but that is a load of hog manure.  There are endless possibilities in this country with student loans, etc available to anyone who wants to excel and the ambition to succeed.  I know many people who became very successful with poor upbringings.  If you believe you have no opportunities and want to cry into your beer then that is what you are destined to do for the rest of your life

 

As my dad always said "you won the genetic lottery by being born here".  The opportunities are there for you to grab if you want them.  I got where I am by hard work, no one gave me jack squat



#39 Greg

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:41 PM

I think folks are mostly arguing past one another on this thread.

 

There is a lot that could be done, particularly in the US, to address economic inequality and access to opportunity. Improvements in childhood education and healthcare top that list. It is markedly better to be born rich than it is to be born poor, and anyone disputing that is staking out a ridiculous position.

 

At the same time, the solution to economic inequality is not communism, or wholesale abandonment of the many significant advantages the free market offers over a centrally planned economy. There is a wealth of empirical evidence in support of a largely free market, and it is senseless to ignore that data.

 

A far more interesting discussion is in the nuances. Which items should be left to the market to address, and when can and should a governmental body intervene to try and level the playing field. It's not all or nothing.

 

[Edit - corrected annoying typo]


Edited by Greg, 11 December 2018 - 05:49 PM.

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#40 rjag

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 05:00 PM

https://www.cbc.ca/r...kM5CDpmRYrIMPNs

 

Populist wave is the warning sign we need: Gwynne Dyer

 



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