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City of Victoria BC - Reconciliation


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#41 StreetLevel

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 08:51 AM

I’m having genuine difficulty dealing with the process of Reconciliation. Apparently this involves a racialized dialogue between Settlers and First Nations. I’m not of indigenous stock like my sister and my aunt so I guess I get to be a settler. Which doesn’t seem fair since when we played Cowboys and Indians in 1950’s Vancouver I got to be the Indian - because bows and arrows! feathered headdresses! - and my sister was the Cowboy - because guns and holsters! cowboy hats! Some families who have lived for generations in BC have this problem - was Bill Reid First Nation because of his Haida mother or Settler because of his Scottish father? Do you get to be a First Nation/Settler? Then there’s the term Settler. Can’t identify. I was born on this coast. I’ve given birth to my sons here, my grandchildren were born here. All my relations are native to this place (natal - Latin - meaning place of birth). It’s true my maternal great-grandparents left Vancouver and moved to San Francisco in the 1920’s so I guess they were settlers. In the states.
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#42 amor de cosmos

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 11:42 AM

there won't be one event when 'reconciliation' is over because these sorts of things are processes. descendants of jews who were victims of the Spanish inquisition are eligible to get spanish citizenship (with some strings attached) even though the inquisition there officially ended nearly 200 years ago & the US still has civil rights issues even though that era is technically decades ago.

#43 spanky123

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:27 PM

But how do we define "their community"?

 

The useless plot of land they were forced onto after being marched to the top of Mt. Doug to sign their "X" on a piece of paper they didn't understand? I think our local Indigenous peoples have their eyes on more attractive goals.

 

 

It is arguably better than how the US and other countries dealt with cultures who didn't sign their treaties. 

 

There are hundreds of bands across the country and the problem is that many people lump them all together. Many bands do remarkably well, others have worthless tracts of land that are very hard to economically develop. Local bands for the most part have extremely valuable tracts of land and generous allocations.



#44 spanky123

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:30 PM

I’m having genuine difficulty dealing with the process of Reconciliation. Apparently this involves a racialized dialogue between Settlers and First Nations. I’m not of indigenous stock like my sister and my aunt so I guess I get to be a settler. Which doesn’t seem fair since when we played Cowboys and Indians in 1950’s Vancouver I got to be the Indian - because bows and arrows! feathered headdresses! - and my sister was the Cowboy - because guns and holsters! cowboy hats! Some families who have lived for generations in BC have this problem - was Bill Reid First Nation because of his Haida mother or Settler because of his Scottish father? Do you get to be a First Nation/Settler? Then there’s the term Settler. Can’t identify. I was born on this coast. I’ve given birth to my sons here, my grandchildren were born here. All my relations are native to this place (natal - Latin - meaning place of birth). It’s true my maternal great-grandparents left Vancouver and moved to San Francisco in the 1920’s so I guess they were settlers. In the states.

 

If we were to try and reapply today's laws and standards to activities that occurred over the past 2,000+ years then most of the world would be very different. 

 

What I find the most distasteful though is how politicians use 'reconciliation' as a marketing tool to boost their own popularity or win supporters without ever having any intention of doing anything of benefit for FN. I would think that the average FN cares more about getting a job and improving their families standard of living then they do having a Mayor wearing a shawl and naming a library named after them.


Edited by spanky123, 01 January 2019 - 12:33 PM.

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#45 rjag

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:33 PM



The application of collective guilt, running from one generation to another, is a dangerous doctrine which would leave few modern nations unscathed. - Margaret Thatcher
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#46 Nparker

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 12:48 PM

Two things.

  1. I was born in British Columbia. I am NOT a settler and will refute any attempts to have that label applied to me.
  2. I have never treated any First Nations person as less than my equal. I have no need to offer any form of reconciliation.

That is all.



#47 newbie_01

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Posted 01 January 2019 - 07:01 PM

Going back to a bit said by Lisa Helps and posted on the first page: "The whole city is their territory"

This is typical woman-think. If a man were in office he would say "This is our territory."

#48 spanky123

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:50 AM

Going back to a bit said by Lisa Helps and posted on the first page: "The whole city is their territory"

This is typical woman-think. If a man were in office he would say "This is our territory."

 

Has nothing to do with being male or female. It makes my earlier point about making "bold statements" and then doing nothing to actually further FN issues. Is Lisa's partner or Rob going to sign title of their property over to local FN bands because they feel as though they stole it? Of course not. 


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#49 VIResident

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:40 AM

Has nothing to do with being male or female. It makes my earlier point about making "bold statements" and then doing nothing to actually further FN issues. Is Lisa's partner or Rob going to sign title of their property over to local FN bands because they feel as though they stole it? Of course not. 

The crux of angst?  Hand over the land that you purchased and gain nothing in return?  Is this the core base concern? 

Perhaps and perhaps a great starting point would be for local politicians, City of Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps and Council, and local First Nations to put this on the table right now.  Answer the question: do you plan to ask for individual property owners to hand over the land that was purchased and for no compensation in return?  Or, let individual landowners know up-front that the land they 'presume' to own will be/not be subject to some unknown re-calculated value, land-use, or will it be transferred to 'public' etc.?  What of public lands that the public purse (your taxes) paid to acquire and will continue to pay taxes on?  What about parks that are being considered for purchase right now? Perhaps an immediate halt to any further expenditures in expansions, acquisitions of any lands by Victoria Municipal Hall should be a point the public pushes until such time as reconciliation and all it entails is unveiled?    Municipal parks, and ownership/management are being lightly tossed out for public to consider.  A concern is the public is simply being 'informed', asked to 'engage' on topics that are picked by politicians, the public is not stepping forward with what the public wants on the table and or what is an absolute and not on the table for politicians to go forward with.  Speak up! 


Edited by VIResident, 02 January 2019 - 09:42 AM.


#50 jonny

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:40 AM

Going back to a bit said by Lisa Helps and posted on the first page: "The whole city is their territory"

 

This is such a dangerous road to go down. Words have meaning. If enough elected officials begin to say this stuff, eventually some FNs will begin to believe it. Then what?

 

What does this even mean, anyway? "Their territory". Their hereditary territory? Their traditional territory? It is certainly not under their jurisdiction or rule today. Like spanky said, nobody is going to give up their land, and it's not like we're going to start remitting lease payments to them (or maybe Lisa will?).

 

Look, Canada was all, or at least in part, the ancestral territory of a whole host of First Nation bands that still exist today. In the past, long before any of us - or our bloody great grandparents - were born, that changed. 



#51 spanky123

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:06 AM

This is such a dangerous road to go down. Words have meaning. If enough elected officials begin to say this stuff, eventually some FNs will begin to believe it. Then what?

 

What does this even mean, anyway? "Their territory". Their hereditary territory? Their traditional territory? It is certainly not under their jurisdiction or rule today. Like spanky said, nobody is going to give up their land, and it's not like we're going to start remitting lease payments to them (or maybe Lisa will?).

 

Look, Canada was all, or at least in part, the ancestral territory of a whole host of First Nation bands that still exist today. In the past, long before any of us - or our bloody great grandparents - were born, that changed. 

 

To cap the matter, most South Island bands signed the Douglas Treaty. Now I understand that they feel as though the treaty was unfair and that they didn't know what they were signing, but they signed a treaty. The Mayor's comments that "this is their territory" is factually incorrect until such a time that the Supreme Court determines that their treaty is invalid and determines that they retained ownership of the land.


Edited by spanky123, 02 January 2019 - 10:06 AM.

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#52 RFS

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:11 AM

Does Lisa not understand that during the course of human history 'territory' changes hands?  Why does she feel it should be frozen in time at a specific era?  I choose 100 AD.  Gaul is still Roman soil!


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#53 tedward

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:46 AM

VV is exactly what it always was, ie at the forefront of a critical interpretation of policy and actions. Critical interpretation isn’t there to be your friend and tell you everything is alright, it’s to make you think. If you don’t like it, it’s all good, but don’t disparage something because you don’t like it.

 

1. There is a difference between "[c]ritical interpretation of policy and actions" and the rage that is demonstrated with ad hominem attacks and ridiculous responses to reasonable questions. Somone above asked what council could do to earn respect or something and the first response I see is basically "they all quit except Geoff Young"  How is that anything but blind hostility?

2. I wish people wouldn't, "disparage something because [they] don't like it". Maybe if the moderators weren't so partisan and actually enforced some basic decorum this would be more than an echo chamber. Instead new contributors arrive, post and are attacked and mocked. Is it any wonder they go away?

If I and maybe what, four other posters, left this forum it would most assuredly be a right-wing echo chamber complaining about "communists" ruining our city.

 

 

VV is no more an echo chamber of city council criticism than city council is an echo chamber of anti capitalist, anti oil rhetoric.  

 

See this sort of comment, is why it appears to be an echo chamber. 

 

VV Toxic? Not even close,

 

Yeah, that's the thing about an echo chamber,you hear only what you want to hear over and over again until you actually start believing it is the way things really are.

 

 

^That could take decades. Besides, there are no processes to follow or regulations to untangle. The covenant is permanent, right there in unambiguous black and white.

 

Why not just do it and let the courts sort it out? That's how the David Johnson and the homeless park campers did it. 

 

Or even easier, the city returns the park to the province for whom they are holding it in trust. The Province then passes legislation or maybe even an order in council, I'm not sure of the limits, and they give it back to the city with a new trust document similar to the one for Stanley Park that allows for reasonable leisure activities and services supporting those activities.

 

 

Two things.

  1. I was born in British Columbia. I am NOT a settler and will refute any attempts to have that label applied to me.
  2. I have never treated any First Nations person as less than my equal. I have no need to offer any form of reconciliation.

That is all.

 

 

1. I don't like the label either but "we" called them "Indians" for a couple of centuries and they have taken to calling us "settlers" so complaining about it seems a little bit over-sensitive to me, but OK. I have been asking for an alternate for years now and you and others have failed to provide one. For that last time, what simple, one or two-word descriptors can you provide that denote CFNA (Canadians of First Nations Ancestry) and CNFNA (Canadians Not of Fist Nations Ancestry)?  

2. No body is asking you to personally. The point is to do it as a community. The community must take some responsibility for it's own history, otherwise we cannot take pride in any of that history, nor take the benefits. Reconciliation looks far better to me, and far more civilized, than the alternative, which would be war.


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#54 Nparker

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 10:51 AM

...For that last time, what simple, one or two-word descriptors can you provide that denote CFNA (Canadians of First Nations Ancestry) and CNFNA (Canadians Not of Fist Nations Ancestry)?  

Canadians works for me.


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#55 jonny

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:25 AM

Some of you sure are sensitive. 

 

I see more coherent, well thought out, respectful debate on VV than I do on any other online channel I follow. VV is by far the most respectful internet forum I have ever been a part of. By frickin' far. 

 

Check out a sports forum if you seriously want to see over-the-top ridiculous responses and ad hominem attacks...

 

If you want it to be less of an "echo chamber"...participate more! Don't helicopter in once every three weeks just to complain, and maybe stop taking yourself so seriously. You're more than likely just an average shmuck like the rest of us. 

 

[Every internet channel runs the risk of becoming somewhat of an echo chamber, or at least appearing that way, because there always tends to be a small percentage of posters who dominate most discussions. There's an easy fix for that...participate!]


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#56 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:32 AM

Esquimalt Mayor Barb Desjardins, a Capital Regional District appointee to the ICF, said the overwhelming consensus of participants at the meeting was that rail has to be part of future transportation infrastructure for Vancouver Island.

 

Desjardins said participants also agreed getting rail up and running on the Island will require significant reconciliation work with some First Nations along the route.

 

“The historic wrongs that were done need to be in some way recognized and perhaps some understanding of compensation and how that might occur [has to be addressed],” she said.

 

 

https://www.timescol...-yet-1.23570436


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 02 January 2019 - 11:33 AM.


#57 RFS

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:36 AM

Somewhat on topic, there is a small construction crane up at the apartment project in what used to be a trailer park on the songhees Reserve 



#58 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:37 AM

There are hundreds of bands across the country and the problem is that many people lump them all together. Many bands do remarkably well, others have worthless tracts of land that are very hard to economically develop. Local bands for the most part have extremely valuable tracts of land and generous allocations.

 

 i think it's fair to say a small handful of the 700+ (?) bands do "remarkably" well.

 

local bands here especially the ones right in the core seem to have valuable tracts of land and they have failed (or not wanted to) to develop them like the bands doing remarkably well.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 02 January 2019 - 11:37 AM.


#59 RFS

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:38 AM

 i think it's fair to say a small handful of the 700+ (?) bands do "remarkably" well.

 

local bands here especially the ones right in the core seem to have valuable tracts of land and they have failed (or not wanted to) to develop them like the bands doing remarkably well.

 

The Oyster Bay band up island seems to have some stuff going on with their new development.  Tim hortons, liqour store, offices, Wyndham hotel 



#60 rjag

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:41 AM

Okanagen bands are doing well, mind you their version of reconciliation is employment and commerce.... don’t ya hate capitalism?
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