259 replies to this topic

[Holden West]

Excerpt from an Oct. 1, 2001 TC article by Jack Knox. Note this is only three weeks after 9/11 when the problem of emergency communications became tragically obvious.

The integration initiative was launched a year ago by the mayors of the five municipalities with their own police departments -- Victoria, Saanich, Central Saanich, Esquimalt and Oak Bay. Representatives of the RCMP have been sitting in, though Leonard emphasizes that "we're not pushing the RCMP to integrate with us. They have chosen to come to the table."

That Leonard hastens to make that point, being careful not to step on any toes, highlights the difficulty of negotiating this political minefield. It was a small miracle that brought the simultaneous election of five mayors who were eager to co-operate. Add in the RCMP, who have political bosses at the provincial level but political customers in eight CRD municipalities, and things could get complicated.

It appears that those very RCMP jurisdictions in the Western Communities that played a big role in this mess, by using their political muscle to push for a cheapo system and then balking on fixing it when it proved inadequate.

[VicHockeyFan]

But the CREST board said yesterday that they brought the fixes up to the level promised with the last upgrade. Is the police department NOW saying that's not good enough? Did they say the last fix, or its service promise would be OK?

What I'm saying is that we have a new mayor and new police chief since that last fix, are they now demanding we go beyond that, or are they saying the last fix did not bring it to where it was promised?

[Bob Fugger]

Who were the original Board member responsible for changing the contract?

Gordie Logan, Chair, Colwood Councillor
Denise Blackwell of Langford
David McLean, former Victoria City Councillor
Dean Fortin
Jody Twa, Colwood Mayor
others?

I do remember from the CBC Radio story/interview the other morning that His Majesty stated that hindsight is 20/20 and that you can't play the blame game, because the politicians originally on the CREST board aren't even in local politcs anymore!

BS!! Aside from David McLean, all of those names are still involved in local politics (Jody Twa is still plugged in at the local-provincial level). Talk about a blatent CYA, Dean-o!!

[yodsaker]

I do remember from the CBC Radio story/interview the other morning that His Majesty stated that hindsight is 20/20 and that you can't play the blame game, because the politicians originally on the CREST board aren't even in local politcs anymore!

BS!! Aside from David McLean, all of those names are still involved in local politics (Jody Twa is still plugged in at the local-provincial level). Talk about a blatent CYA, Dean-o!!

Yeah but he wants to CHA with more taxpayer money.

[VicHockeyFan]

Let's say, for example, that an extra police officer costs us $80,000 in salary and benefits, that might be a little low, but bear with me, this cop doesn't have to be very smart.

$15M (CREST fix to last another 10 years) / $80k = 187.5 police officers for one year. Over 10 years, an extra 18.7 officers.

What is a better expenditure of money, a new radio system that will work 100% of the time instead of 98.5%, or an extra 18.7 officers for ten years? Heck, station extra officers to cover the 30 buildings where they have radio trouble. Four officers could be on standby downtown around the clock, all they do is be ready to go into one of those 30 buildings when a serious call comes in from one of them. Now 5 officers always go in, instead of one with a shaky radio.

We can't have gold-plated everything, there is a trade-off of cost and efficiency for safety, there always has been. If that were not the case, the speed limit in Canada would be 10kmh and we'd save hundreds of lives and thousands of injuries every year.

Let's live with the system we have now, and a strong back-up and systems for the odd time we have a serious problem downtown. I mean jeepers, in 1976 we went in with no radio contact, why can't we now? Cops didn't all wear radios until well into the 80's right?

[VicHockeyFan]

^ It's a bit like how for $600,000 we could have hired 10 guys for an entire year to meticulously deconstruct, move, and reconstruct one wall inside Roger's Chocolate's.

[martini]

Hey I wonder if CREST could qualify for entries here:
http://en.wikipedia....oggle_(project)
http://en.wikipedia..../White_elephant

[martini]

Crest radio system: a timeline
Times Colonist March 17, 2010
http://www.timescolo...2090/story.html

:confused:
Let me get this straight...replacing the system would be $5 million and two months later we spend double to repair the old one?

I was really finding this hard to believe, but...it's true.

Replacing CREST would cost millions
Telus is pitching a $5-million system; officials are looking at $6-10 million to fix present setup
Rob Shaw, Times Colonist
Published: Saturday, October 27, 2007
http://www2.canada.c...215&k=69849&p=1

They are all debating whether to spend $6 million to $10 million to fix CREST's reception woes. The system cost $17 million to build in 2003.

Telus made its own pitch to police and city officials on Oct. 1.

The company said it would build new cell towers across Greater Victoria and upgrade the IDen mobile system -- currently used for backup radios by Victoria police -- into a full-fledged emergency radio system, said Shawn Hall, Telus spokesman.

"The current coverage area of our IDen network is as good or better than what CREST currently has," said Hall. Technically, IDen is a digital cellphone network, but Hall said it can be upgraded to an emergency-service standard.

Police in Durham, Ont., use IDen radios. Victoria police Insp. Bob Gehl said officers visited Durham in August to see the system first-hand and reported Durham was satisfied.

CREST officials have long questioned whether Telus radios could communicate with CREST radios. But Telus insists the two could be made "interoperable" using a central console with technology similar to its disaster-response emergency satellite trucks.

Even if Victoria police choose to build their own Telus system, the city is obligated to pay millions for upgrades as part of its share for initially agreeing to participate in CREST, said Fortin.

Now flash forward to today:
TELUS TARGETS CELL SERVICE GAPS IN GREATER VICTORIA
Mar 18, 2010
http://www.cfax1070....hp?newsId=12820
TELUS HAS BUDGETTED TO SPEND AS MUCH AS FOUR MILLION DOLLARS IMPROVING CELLULAR PHONE SERVICE IN THE VICTORIA REGION THIS YEAR.

THE COMPANY SAYS IDEALLY IT WOULD LIKE TO INSTALL EIGHT NEW CELL TRANSCEIVER SITES...SOME OF THEM TO FILL IN COVERAGE GAPS, AND SOME TO INCREASE SYSTEM CAPACITY. SPOKESPERSON SHAWN HALL SAYS THEY HOPE TO BE ABLE TO LOCATE ALL EIGHT OF THEIR SITES ON EXISTING TOWERS OR TALL BUILDINGS, SO THAT NO NEW TOWERS WOULD ACTUALLY APPEAR ON THE LANDSCAPE.

HE SAYS THEY NEED TWO SITES IN VICTORIA; TWO IN SAANICH; TWO IN ESQUIMALT; AND TWO ON THE WESTSHORE. HALL SAYS A CELL SITE COSTS ABOUT HALF A MILLION DOLLARS, ON AVERAGE.



http://www.crest.ca/about/faq

CREST uses a wide-area radio system called a mixed mode Motorola SmartZone 4.1. By using a mixed mode system, we are able to support both digital and analog communications. This allows mobile and portable radios as well as dispatch operators to communicate over large distances through repeaters.

CREST's infrastructure includes:

* 24 transmission and receiver sites,
* 51 in-vehicle repeaters,
* 1,758 mobile and portable radios, and
* 78 frequencies.

The system is also designed to move towards an open standard of telecommunications when the technology becomes available.

[Holden West]

I said it earlier, and I still predict that in the near-distant future, after that final million dollars is spent and CREST is finally perfected, someone will unveil a dirt-cheap satellite communication system with unprecedented coverage.

[Bingo]

All buildings that have a problem with reception should be required to be wired with transponders or whatever technology is available, at the owners expense.

If you hire a security company to check on your premises, you pay for that.

[piltdownman]

I said it earlier, and I still predict that in the near-distant future, after that final million dollars is spent and CREST is finally perfected, someone will unveil a dirt-cheap satellite communication system with unprecedented coverage.

All current satellite communication system require line of sight as well as being cost prohibited. It would be very hard for it to overcome both these things. A WiMAX mess might someday be the answer.

[Bingo]

We can't have gold-plated everything, there is a trade-off of cost and efficiency for safety, there always has been. If that were not the case, the speed limit in Canada would be 10kmh and we'd save hundreds of lives and thousands of injuries every year.

Let's live with the system we have now, and a strong back-up and systems for the odd time we have a serious problem downtown. I mean jeepers, in 1976 we went in with no radio contact, why can't we now? Cops didn't all wear radios until well into the 80's right?

I just love these comments. For a minute I thought this was the Johnson Street Bridge thread, but this rationale for making repairs to the Crest system has a ring about it that can also apply to the bridge.

Crest cost the city $17 million back in 2003, was repaired in 2007 for 10.6 million and will likely be outdated within 10 years. Not much of a lifeline for our police force during an emergency.

Speaking of lifelines, the Blue Bridge could have been a long way on the road to repair, for a cost similar to what will eventually get the Crest radios reliable.

see Crest System timeline:
http://www.timescolo...2090/story.html

[martini]

I just love these comments. For a minute I thought this was the Johnson Street Bridge thread, but this rationale for making repairs to the Crest system has a ring about it that can also apply to the bridge.

Crest cost the city $17 million back in 2003, was repaired in 2007 for 10.6 million and will likely be outdated within 10 years. Not much of a lifeline for our police force during an emergency.

Speaking of lifelines, the Blue Bridge could have been a long way on the road to repair, for a cost similar to what will eventually get the Crest radios reliable.

see Crest System timeline:
http://www.timescolo...2090/story.html

Bingo! Thank you!

[Bingo]

What is the present status of the Crest radios. Are the Victoria Police still having problems with the system?

[VicHockeyFan]

Jeeezzz, I just heard a radio ad for the CREST system. How can anyone justify spending money on an ad campaign for a radio system used only by our first-responders?

Sounds like someone is spending up their budget....

[martini]

^wow

[eseedhouse]

VicPD still broadcast on an analog radio channel? Or is your scanner real amazing? Or are you a cop?

I have a GRE-800 scanner which decodes P25 digital quite decently. Victoria police rarely use encryption although they can if they want, and occasionally do. I have my scanner programmed to give a "busy signal" when the broadcast is encrypted.

P25 digital is an open standard and it's perfectly legal to listen to it. Scanners that will decode it have been available for several years now. On the other hand it is illegal in the USA and Canada to sell a general coverage receiver that will receive cell phone frequencies. Of course anyone with a little knowledge (which doesn't include me) can defeat these blockages quite easily.

I used. many years ago, to listen to radio telephone calls many years ago on the high frequencies when any short wave receiver could pick them up. Many were ship to shore. It was perfectly legal to listen, but not to discuss.

Some local ham repeaters have phone connections so an amateur operator can use it to make phone calls. From time to time I've heard these calls as well. Once again, this is perfectly legal.

Police radio should, in my opinion, operate in the open as much as possible. Of course there are times when encryption is only proper.

In practice the police in and around Victoria, including the R.C.M.P. communicate in unencrypted P25 digital. Names of suspects and complainants and license plates are normally broadcast in the clear.

[VicHockeyFan]

I have a GRE-800 scanner which decodes P25 digital quite decently. Victoria police rarely use encryption although they can if they want, and occasionally do. I have my scanner programmed to give a "busy signal" when the broadcast is encrypted.

P25 digital is an open standard and it's perfectly legal to listen to it. Scanners that will decode it have been available for several years now. On the other hand it is illegal in the USA and Canada to sell a general coverage receiver that will receive cell phone frequencies. Of course anyone with a little knowledge (which doesn't include me) can defeat these blockages quite easily.

I used. many years ago, to listen to radio telephone calls many years ago on the high frequencies when any short wave receiver could pick them up. Many were ship to shore. It was perfectly legal to listen, but not to discuss.

Some local ham repeaters have phone connections so an amateur operator can use it to make phone calls. From time to time I've heard these calls as well. Once again, this is perfectly legal.

Police radio should, in my opinion, operate in the open as much as possible. Of course there are times when encryption is only proper.

In practice the police in and around Victoria, including the R.C.M.P. communicate in unencrypted P25 digital. Names of suspects and complainants and license plates are normally broadcast in the clear.

Interesting, it's been a long time since I've had a scanner. Would it be legal to intercept the data going to and from the police laptops in their crusiers? With that info you could tie license plates, driver license numbers, addresses etc. to names and photos...

[sebberry]

Sounds like fun, but too expensive

[sebberry]

Interesting, it's been a long time since I've had a scanner. Would it be legal to intercept the data going to and from the police laptops in their crusiers? With that info you could tie license plates, driver license numbers, addresses etc. to names and photos...

That I'm sure would be encrypted.