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#121 sebberry

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 02:44 PM

Really? Because natural immunity *as a substitute for vaccination* has only been "crazy" since covid. 

 

Quick google search re: chickenpox vaccine vs. natural immunity shows this on the first results...

 

Capture.PNG

 

I assume you won't be getting a shingles vaccine then, eh?  

 

I sure wish the chickenpox vaccine was available before I had it.  Was living with my grandmother at the time who was in hospital so I couldn't visit her, and I ended up missing an important week of school.  I also whish whoever I caught it from had access to, and used the vaccine...  But, natural immunity is better, eh?


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#122 max.bravo

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 02:44 PM

In immunology, natural immunity is ALWAYS better than vaccine immunity. It's actually the covidians who are "crazy" on this one. Never in history has a vaccine been considered superior to natural immunity.

 

Think critically: how can inducing an immune response to one small part of the covid virus (the spike protein, displayed on your own body's cells) possibly be better than an immune system that is primed to recognize and attack the whole virus - the real thing? Spend as much time as you need thinking about it.

 

Once you wrap your head around the difference between vaccine-induced "protection" (note: they don't call it immunity anymore) and natural immunity, read up on Original Antigenic Sin. You may begin to understand why taking the vaccine may be riskier than just exposing yourself to the virus (if you're <65 and relatively healthy). It's all about risk management, but you can't understand the risks if you outsource all your thinking to The Experts.

 

There's a lot of good reasons to think the vaccine's ineffectiveness with every strain after alpha is because of Original Antigenic Sin. An immune system gets one shot to prime itself for a virus -- if you train it to recognize an aspect of the virus that mutates too far from the original, you become SOL. But I don't think there's good data to indicate this is the case with the covid variants -- it's just conjecture. 



#123 max.bravo

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 02:52 PM

...  But, natural immunity is better, eh?

Yes, your acquired (natural) immunity to chickenpox absolutely provides better protection than a vaccine-induced immunity. (Alhough I hear you saying that being sick was uncomfortable - I'm sorry you experienced that).

 

There are hundreds of peer reviewed studies that make this same point, for many different viruses. Here's just one for chicken pox immunity (natural vs. vaccine).

 

https://academic.oup...6/2/260/1037176

 

 

Capture.PNG

 

There are good reasons to believe the vaccine-induced immunity provided by mRNA vaccines should be even less efficacious than live attenuated vaccines. In the case of covid mRNA viruses you're exposing your immune system to only a very small part of the covid virus. At least with the live attenuated vaccines your immune system gets to imprint on most of the entire virus. 


Edited by max.bravo, 06 February 2023 - 02:55 PM.


#124 max.bravo

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 02:59 PM

I assume you won't be getting a shingles vaccine then, eh?  

 

I sure wish the chickenpox vaccine was available before I had it.  Was living with my grandmother at the time who was in hospital so I couldn't visit her, and I ended up missing an important week of school.  I also whish whoever I caught it from had access to, and used the vaccine...  But, natural immunity is better, eh?

Also, your comment assumes vaccines should prevent transmission. Oops, you must be living in pre-2021 when it was still safe to say that.  

 

In 2023 "everybody knows vaccines don't prevent transmission - they just reduce the severity of your illness" ... right?   :wave:


Edited by max.bravo, 06 February 2023 - 03:00 PM.


#125 sebberry

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 03:16 PM

I'm not sure chickenpox has been shown to cause heart attacks and strokes in otherwise healthy individuals, so I'm not sure why you're conflating it with COVID.  Please, as I asked before, provide a reputable study that disproves the connection between COVID and cardiovascular disease.  


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#126 sukika

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 03:41 PM

In immunology, natural immunity is ALWAYS better than vaccine immunity. It's actually the covidians who are "crazy" on this one. Never in history has a vaccine been considered superior to natural immunity.

 

So you would refuse the rabies vaccine if you were bitten by a potentially rabid animal? 


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#127 max.bravo

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 04:07 PM

Natural immunity to rabies isn’t possible. It’s 💯 fatal. So absolutely I’d get vaccinated for it. However In fact, I am one of few in this region who already has been inoculated against it. (Due to former line of work) 😎
It’s not a routine vaccine here. Though it should be imo.

#128 sebberry

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 04:13 PM

I'm pretty sure rabies is a government conspiracy.  What could possibly jump from bats to humans?


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#129 sukika

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 04:28 PM

The thing with natural immunity is you have to get through the illness to gain the immunity. There are many people for whom a respiratory illness could cause severe issues and even death, so the vaccine is the best option in those cases especially since a COVID infection can cause the same side effects as the vaccine. 



#130 max.bravo

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 05:00 PM

Yes exactly. It’s risk management. That is why the principle of informed consent is so important. Or at least, it used to be.

#131 sebberry

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Posted 06 February 2023 - 05:12 PM

The thing with natural immunity is you have to get through the illness to gain the immunity. There are many people for whom a respiratory illness could cause severe issues and even death, so the vaccine is the best option in those cases especially since a COVID infection can cause the same side effects as the vaccine. 

 

And then you have vascular diseases such as COVID, for whom it can cause severe issues and even death in the absence of underlying conditions.  And let's be real - not everyone with an underlying condition knows they have it.


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#132 Mike K.

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 05:44 AM

Until a hot minute ago, "natural immunity" was a conspiracy theory on this forum.


It never was. This forum respected your right to be here while others kicked you out. The least you could do is not make stuff up.

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#133 amor de cosmos

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 08:53 AM

Since January 2022, the Tacoma-Pierce County Health Department has repeatedly sought and received court orders in attempts to isolate the patient to protect the public.

Filings in Pierce County Superior Court show that starting Jan. 18, 2022, the health department sought involuntary isolation orders, contending the woman started, but did not follow through with, prescribed treatment for TB.

The department, in its announcement Monday, stated it was “working with her and her family to try to persuade her to get the treatment she needs to help cure the TB so she can protect herself and others.”

The department added that it had “the legal authority to seek a court order to persuade patients to comply.”

*snip*

The Health Department has the legal authority to seek a court order to compel patients “to work with a physician and the Health Department, and in very rare cases, we must take this step to ensure a person does not put others at risk,” TPCHD media representative Kenny Via wrote The News Tribune on Thursday.

“As part of a court order, we may request assistance from local law enforcement if needed to help ensure people take their medication. This step is very rare. In the past 20 years, we’ve requested law enforcement to assist us with three cases.”

The present case has resulted in multiple court orders, but only recently included potential enforcement escalation if orders continue to be violated, including electronic home monitoring and jail time.

*snip*

A supplemental petition was filed by TPCHD to the court Jan. 11, 2023. It states that the patient was a passenger in a car involved in a wreck.

The day after the crash, the patient went to an Emergency Department complaining of chest pains. X-rays taken during the visit “demonstrate that she does have tuberculosis and it is progressing,” the petition stated.

“She reported that she was a passenger in a vehicle driven by another. This admission means that she was not in isolation,” the health department’s petition said.

It stated that while the patient “is permitted to leave her home for medical care, it appears that she did not alert the ER staff that she had tuberculosis (as evidenced by the fact that the staff thought she had lung cancer) thereby putting the staff at risk, as well as those she encountered in the ER.”

It noted the patient also tested positive for COVID-19, “which also strongly suggests that she is not isolating as per this court’s order.”
 
*snip*

In a June 15, 2022, TB presentation to the Tacoma-Pierce County Board of Health, Stinson said that active case management was crucial in reducing risks of drug-resistant TB strains.

“People can develop drug resistance if they don’t take their medicines every day correctly. And that’s why we really are very involved with TB care as a public health department,” she said.

She noted that the cost of treating drug-resistant TB can run $100,000 or more.

“That’s why we very carefully manage our patients,” she told the board. If patients are lax in medication adherence, “you can develop resistance. And then we have a real problem when this happens.”

https://www.aol.com/...-205458749.html
via https://arstechnica....now-faces-jail/


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#134 max.bravo

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 08:58 AM

It never was. This forum respected your right to be here while others kicked you out. The least you could do is not make stuff up.

You're right. I should clarify: those who bought into the mainstream narrative denied that natural immunity had any value whatsoever... until the mainstream narrative started slowly shifting to acknowledge that "hybrid immunity" is the best immunity. I believe that's because they'll never say the vaccine is basically useless (which it seems to be), but they also can't deny the efficacy of natural immunity any longer. 

 

This forum has been among the best sources of discussion I've found - a rare place where both sides of an issue are represented, and can have spirited, open dialogue. A rare gem. I don't know if it's the mods or the users, but this place has been a great source of information and entertainment during the pandemic. Kudos, Mike and mods.



#135 Mike K.

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:02 AM

That's more like it.

Ok, back to the arguments!


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#136 sebberry

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:05 AM

You're right. I should clarify: those who bought into the mainstream narrative denied that natural immunity had any value whatsoever... until the mainstream narrative started slowly shifting to acknowledge that "hybrid immunity" is the best immunity. I believe that's because they'll never say the vaccine is basically useless (which it seems to be), but they also can't deny the efficacy of natural immunity any longer. 

 

This forum has been among the best sources of discussion I've found - a rare place where both sides of an issue are represented, and can have spirited, open dialogue. A rare gem. I don't know if it's the mods or the users, but this place has been a great source of information and entertainment during the pandemic. Kudos, Mike and mods.

 

The funny thing is that any immunity boost imparted by infection (aka natural immunity) was made possible by vaccines lessening the severity of infection.  If your idea of natural immunity is purely infection without any sort of vaccination, we'd have been in for much more hurt.


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#137 Mike K.

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:08 AM

Where's all that hurt globally, though, where they didn't have access to vaccines?


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#138 max.bravo

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 09:45 AM

The funny thing is that any immunity boost imparted by infection (aka natural immunity) was made possible by vaccines lessening the severity of infection.  If your idea of natural immunity is purely infection without any sort of vaccination, we'd have been in for much more hurt.

I don't really buy this because my personal experience of infection without vaccination wasn't so terrible. Same goes for everyone in my household who got covid and wasn't vaccinated, and many other unvaccinated friends who had it. In my view, there wasn't any noticeable difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated friends who got covid... 

 

I think a lot depends on your circles of friends -- if everyone you know is vaccinated, and the news tells you vaccination reduces severity by a noticeable amount, you tend to believe it, because why wouldnt you, if you dont know many unvaccinated people. 

 

But if you know many unvaxed and vaxed people who had the same covid experience, then you're gonna be scratching your head (and rolling your eyes) when you hear the line, "I'm just glad I was vaccinated otherwise it would have been much worse...."

 

If the vaccine was really such a success, I think people would've noticed a big difference. Maybe that difference existed for the alpha strain, but certainly wasnt there for delta or omicron from what I saw on the ground. Who knows though.


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#139 sebberry

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 10:02 AM

The problem is that you're merely comparing the severity of the acute infection and ignoring the long-term impacts. The personal experience of you and your circle of family and friends is miniscule compared to the number of those infected globally.  


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#140 max.bravo

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Posted 08 February 2023 - 10:19 AM

Yep, it’s purely anecdotal- I admit that.

There’s also a big issue looming on the horizon of sorting out long term impacts of COVID vs long term vaccine impacts (if there are any - we simply don’t know yet).

Without a control group of unvaccinated, how easily can they tease out the long COVID from the long COVID-vaccine (if such a thing might exist)?

Not very easily. And if such a thing exists, and if there are bad actors (like greedy pharmas or politicians who want to justify past tyrannical policies), then there’s an incentive to conflate COVID injuries with vaccine injuries.

This is the kind of situation that makes me suspicious. Not saying there’s a grand conspiracy, just that it would be wise to consider that at least some of the powers that be have a vested interest in hiding vaccine injuries, if such a thing exists. And long COVID injuries would be a convenient place to do that.

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