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215 graves at Kamloops residential school | Discussion, news, and what we know so far


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#121 Danma

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:26 PM

I agree that there's no need for hyperbole; the existing confirmed cases, combined with the overall thrust of the entire program as an instrument of cultural genocide, already paint in sharp relief the way Canada failed to serve its responsibilities in regards to its treaties with the First Nations of this land, and failed to meet any level of ethical or moral standards in its reprehensible treatment of the wards of the state.

 

My thoughts turn to the subject of reconciliation. These findings would not be so painful if we were much farther down the path of attempting to make real change. Some of the issues brought up in the TRC findings persist and continue to exist to this day.

Can our country and our culture make the changes necessary to be able to truthfully reconcile our differences with the First Nations, actually meet our obligations in respect to our treaties and develop true co-operation in a meaningful way? I feel like we're still what might be a generation or more away from actually achieving this. 

 

I look at a country like New Zealand which has spent 30 years working hard to reconcile its relationship with the Maori and hope that this awareness of our own history will open us up to meaningful changes in a similar way.


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#122 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:35 PM

The last one to close was in Saskatchewan in 1996


Ok so then in the 1980’s and 1990’s were first nations kids still compelled to attend these schools? were they "ripped from their parents" at this time? why did society so recently allow that?


somehow it seems odd these atrocities went undetected for 100+ years.

#123 Rex Waverly

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:52 PM

Ok so then in the 1980’s and 1990’s were first nations kids still compelled to attend these schools? were they "ripped from their parents" at this time? why did society so recently allow that?


somehow it seems odd these atrocities went undetected for 100+ years.

 

Denial is a hell of a drug, i think..... people just don't want to admit this was happened; it hurts to know that your country / government / church / etc. could be responsible for something so horrendous.  

 

I mean, look how long it took for the abuse scandal in the Catholic Church to come out?  Or all this #metoo stuff going on in hollywood, governments, businesses, etc......   it's not that no-one knew, it's that no-one spoke of it openly because it was uncomfortable. 


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#124 Jables

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 12:54 PM

Ok so then in the 1980’s and 1990’s were first nations kids still compelled to attend these schools? were they "ripped from their parents" at this time? why did society so recently allow that?


somehow it seems odd these atrocities went undetected for 100+ years.

 

If you really want answers to these questions, I'd recommend that you call one of the leaders of the local tribes. Make sure to tell them that it's "odd that these atrocities went undetected for 100+ years".

 

Here's their contact information:

 

Songhees - 250-386-1043 - info@songheesnation.com

Esquimalt - 250-381-7861 - rob@esquimaltnation.ca (Chief Councillor Rob Thomas)

Tsartlip - 250-652-3988 - chief@tsartlip.com

Tsawout - 250-652-9101 - reception@tsawout.ca

Tseycum - 250-656-0858 - info@tseycum.ca

Malahat - 250-743-3231 - info@malahatnation.com

T'Sou-ke - 250-642-3957 - gordonplanes@icloud.com

Pacheedaht - info@pacheedahtfirstnation.com

Tla-o-qui-aht - 1-250-725-3350 - tribaladmin@tla-o-qui-aht.org (I know they had a residential school near their tribe, just north of the village of Opitsaht. They would be a good resource)

Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council - 250-724-5757 - lisa.sam@nuuchahnulth.org

 

Let us know what you find, it would be interesting to hear what their responses are.


Edited by Jables, 02 June 2021 - 12:59 PM.

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#125 Danma

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:14 PM

Indeed, these incidents carried on into the 1980s. Here's an article from Maclean's in 2000 about the abuses at the last residential school, Gordon Residential School in SK.

https://www.thecanad...-school-scandal

 

"William Starr worked at Gordon from 1968 to 1984 and was, on the surface, a fatherly figure. He also enjoyed an unimpeded 16-year run of pedophilia at Gordon by enticing impoverished boys into having sex, then buying their silence with money, arcade games and clothes. He took some on trips - on one evening outing to Regina, he left the boys in a car until 2 a.m. while he gambled at a casino - then took them to the Imperial 400 motel and had sex with them. In 1993, Starr pleaded guilty to charges of sexual assault on 10 students and was sentenced to 4½ years in prison. But those convictions do not come close to reflecting the horrible scope of Starr's alleged activities: of the 230 Gordon school plaintiffs who received a federal settlement, all claimed to have been abused by Starr."

The schools did get oversight by band and tribal councils in the 1970s... but between cover ups by employees and the internalized shame of the entire experience, it took decades to shed light on the situations. It wasn't until the late 80s/early 90s when native leaders began to open up about their trauma.

 

It seems that the problem was hidden in plain sight, where victims were threatened and beaten into submissions and oversight was minimal or incompetent, or simply didn't care.


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#126 Jables

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:19 PM

The awfulness of the truth is why exaggerated stories aren't required. In fact they diminish the truth, and will result in Canadians caring even less about survivors' stories.

 

Yes, the entire idea behind residential schools was misguided at best, and by the moral standards of 21st Century Canada it was abhorrent and unethical. And yes, it resulted in many terrible, awful, horrible abuses- stories that the whole world should know about, and that we Canadians should try to heal and reconcile with our Indigenous neighbours, however that needs to happen. 

 

So why do we keep getting inflated/obviously false narratives passed off as truth? Look at the copypasta refuted earlier in this thread. And I think it's happening now with the "confirmed" mass grave in Kamloops story. 

 

CNN reported it as a "mass grave" rather than an unmarked cemetery. Those are two very different things! The mass grave narrative was also passed as truth in the gofundme linked earlier in the thread: 

 

 

 

We know from the Kamloops Indian Band's press release that nothing has been dug up yet. We also know from expert ground-penetrating radar specialists commentary that it can't be a mass grave (because you couldn't count 215 individual bodies by GPR if it was).

 

And regardless of whether it's an unmarked cemetery or a mass grave, you can't determine the age of a child by use of ground penetrating radar. These are extraordinary claims, and I don't doubt there's an unmarked cemetery with 215 (or more) bodies of children from the residential school. But insinuating it's a mass grave, and confirming details that can't be confirmed-- that needs more explanation. 

 

Yes, the entire idea behind the Kraków Ghetto was misguided at best, and by the moral standards of 21st Century Canada it was abhorrent and unethical. And yes, it resulted in many terrible, awful, horrible abuses- stories that the whole world should know about, and that we should try to heal and reconcile with our Jewish neighbours, however that needs to happen. So why do we keep getting inflated/obviously false narratives passed off as truth? CNN reported the bodies found as a "mass grave" rather than an unmarked cemetery. Those are two very different things!
 
----
 
Imagine saying this to a Holocaust survivor and you'll understand what I mean when I say that some people on this forum are whitewashing this. Residential Schools weren't a "misguided idea at best", they were a deliberate attempt to destroy and assimilate the culture of Canada's indigenous population by any means necessary. It's an abhorrent and unethical thing now and it was an abhorrent and unethical thing then. 215 people are found dead and what we're talking about is the semantics of "mass grave" vs "unmarked cemetary". Give me a break.

Edited by Jables, 02 June 2021 - 01:22 PM.

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#127 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:27 PM

but you just compared them to a killing program that wiped out 6 million people.

while it’s unclear if deaths in residential schools were higher than either the white population or on-reserve populations.

#128 max.bravo

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:35 PM


Yes, the entire idea behind the Kraków Ghetto was misguided at best, and by the moral standards of 21st Century Canada it was abhorrent and unethical. And yes, it resulted in many terrible, awful, horrible abuses- stories that the whole world should know about, and that we should try to heal and reconcile with our Jewish neighbours, however that needs to happen. So why do we keep getting inflated/obviously false narratives passed off as truth? CNN reported the bodies found as a "mass grave" rather than an unmarked cemetery. Those are two very different things!

----

Imagine saying this to a Holocaust survivor and you'll understand what I mean when I say that some people on this forum are whitewashing this. Residential Schools weren't a "misguided idea at best", they were a deliberate attempt to destroy and assimilate the culture of Canada's indigenous population by any means necessary. It's an abhorrent and unethical thing now and it was an abhorrent and unethical thing then. 215 people are found dead and what we're talking about is the semantics of "mass grave" vs "unmarked cemetary". Give me a break.


The meaning of words matters. By your standard, I have a mass grave of dead pets in my backyard!!

#129 Rex Waverly

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:37 PM

 

Yes, the entire idea behind the Kraków Ghetto was misguided at best, and by the moral standards of 21st Century Canada it was abhorrent and unethical. And yes, it resulted in many terrible, awful, horrible abuses- stories that the whole world should know about, and that we should try to heal and reconcile with our Jewish neighbours, however that needs to happen. So why do we keep getting inflated/obviously false narratives passed off as truth? CNN reported the bodies found as a "mass grave" rather than an unmarked cemetery. Those are two very different things!
 
----
 
Imagine saying this to a Holocaust survivor and you'll understand what I mean when I say that some people on this forum are whitewashing this. Residential Schools weren't a "misguided idea at best", they were a deliberate attempt to destroy and assimilate the culture of Canada's indigenous population by any means necessary. It's an abhorrent and unethical thing now and it was an abhorrent and unethical thing then. 215 people are found dead and what we're talking about is the semantics of "mass grave" vs "unmarked cemetary". Give me a break.

 

 

I do think it is a valid point, that the news articles reporting on this subject should be very careful to make sure the reporting is accurate.  

 

The truth is already pretty damning, there's no need to exaggerate claims because even minor errors in reporting can be used to claim that the entire story is not true or overblown (as some of the above commenters may be trying to argue).  

 

I mean, the difference between a mass grave and an unmarked cemetery is really the size of the hole....  it's already horrific that a bunch of kids were killed, the terminology used shouldn't really change the impact of the story but using the inaccurate term only gives deniers something to cling to.


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#130 max.bravo

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:46 PM

I mean, the difference between a mass grave and an unmarked cemetery is really the size of the hole.... it's already horrific that a bunch of kids were killed, the terminology used shouldn't really change the impact of the story but using the inaccurate term only gives deniers something to cling to.

A “mass grave” usually implies a mass killing. They are killed together and buried together. Certainly intentional murder- not an accident. the kind of thing that happens in the most evil crimes against humanity ever committed- like the holocaust.

An unmarked cemetery implies a different thing altogether. Individuals buried over a long period of time, one at a time, in different locations within the same general area. Cause of death isn’t as easy to guess. This is still terrible and we must uncover the truth and heal as much as possible, but it’s not nearly as acutely brutal as the intentional mass murder event that the term “mass grave” implies.

Edited by max.bravo, 02 June 2021 - 01:47 PM.


#131 Rex Waverly

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:48 PM

but you just compared them to a killing program that wiped out 6 million people.

while it’s unclear if deaths in residential schools were higher than either the white population or on-reserve populations.

 

 

 

Select quotes from https://nationalpost...dential-schools

 

The deadliest years for Indian Residential Schools were from the 1870s to the 1920s. In the first six years after its 1884 opening, for instance, the Qu’Appelle Indian Residential School saw the deaths of more than 40 per cent of its students. Sacred Heart Residential School in Southern Alberta had an annual student death rate of one in 20.

 

-even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.

 

- One third of children who died at a residential school did not have their names recorded by school administrators. One quarter were marked as deceased without even their gender being noted. Among the 2,800 names on the official memorial register are children known to recorded history only as “Alice,” “Mckay” or “Elsie.”

 

The commission ultimately determined that at least 3,200 children died while a student at a Residential School; one in every 50 students enrolled during the program’s nearly 120-year existence. That’s a death rate comparable to the number of Canadian POWs who died in the custody of Nazi Germany during the Second World War.



#132 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:49 PM

The complete extermination of the Jews became Nazi policy in 1942. Canada's aim with its Indigenous population evolved over the decades and was mostly about the goal of assimilation, or at least eradicating the aspects of their culture authorities deemed incompatible with mainstream society.

 

There are things that today we think of as innocuous and not worth drastic measure but back then authorities felt they had a moral obligation to intervene when they saw what they considered paganism, immorality (unmarried non-nuclear family groups), promiscuity etc.

 

The church and state may possibly have had their best long-term interests in mind but this plan was doomed by the fact many people from the top ministers in Ottawa right down to the school janitors considered Indigenous people inferior breeds of human. And of course the job of school caretaker tended to offer violent abusers and sex offenders unchecked free reign and protection.


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#133 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:50 PM

^ ^ why does the first paragraph compare a Saskatchewan residential school with a select alberta school?

the third paragraph is sure odd. designed to elicit some kind of response to that bizarre comparison. but hey they managed to get the word “Nazi” successfully into the piece.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 02 June 2021 - 01:53 PM.


#134 Jables

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:55 PM

A “mass grave” usually implies a mass killing. They are killed together and buried together. Certainly intentional murder- not an accident. the kind of thing that happens in the most evil crimes against humanity ever committed- like the holocaust.

An unmarked cemetery implies a different thing altogether. Individuals buried over a long period of time, one at a time, in different locations within the same general area. Cause of death isn’t as easy to guess. This is still terrible and we must uncover the truth and heal as much as possible, but it’s not nearly as acutely brutal as the intentional mass murder event that the term “mass grave” implies.

 

I do understand what you're getting at but at the end of the day it is still a strawman argument that doesn't speak to the core issues here. 215 kids ripped from their families and killed over 150 years is still as much of a tragedy as it would be if it had happened over 150 days.


Edited by Jables, 02 June 2021 - 01:58 PM.

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#135 Rex Waverly

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 01:58 PM

^ ^ why does the first paragraph compare a Saskatchewan residential school with a select alberta school?

the third paragraph is sure odd. designed to elicit some kind of response to that bizarre comparison. but hey they managed to get the word “Nazi” successfully into the piece.

 

I don't think that's supposed to be a comparison..... just showing two residential schools with abysmal death rates.

 

(I realize 1 in 20 is 'only' 5% compared to 40%, but a) that's still awfully high, and b) it's an annual rate, whereas the 40% is overall rate for enrolled students.  Kinda apples to oranges.)


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#136 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:02 PM

-even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.



what was a native death rate? on reserves etc.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 02 June 2021 - 02:03 PM.


#137 max.bravo

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:08 PM

-even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.



what was a native death rate? on reserves etc.


Agree this comparison is designed to incite outrage. they’d need to compare residential school death rates to on-reserve death rates since thats where the kids would be otherwise. But on-res death rate data almost certainly doesn’t exist with any useful degree of accuracy
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#138 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:12 PM

anyway it sounds like we screwed up.  but i have a hard time with those that blame "the government" or "the church".

 

sounds like society was screwy.

 

natives didn't have voting rights until the 60's.

 

https://www.thecanad...genous-suffrage

 

 

On 31 March 1960, portions of Section 14(2) of the Canada Elections Act were repealed in order to grant the federal vote to status Indians. First Nations people could now vote without losing their Indian status.

 

Indian reaction to Diefenbaker’s initiative was mixed. Many Indigenous peoples feared that the act of voting in federal elections would mean loss of historic rights and Indian status. For many years, Indigenous turnout at federal elections was low.


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 02 June 2021 - 02:15 PM.


#139 Jables

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:15 PM

The complete extermination of the Jews became Nazi policy in 1942. Canada's aim with its Indigenous population evolved over the decades and was mostly about the goal of assimilation, or at least eradicating the aspects of their culture authorities deemed incompatible with mainstream society.

 

There are things that today we think of as innocuous and not worth drastic measure but back then authorities felt they had a moral obligation to intervene when they saw what they considered paganism, immorality (unmarried non-nuclear family groups), promiscuity etc.

 

The church and state may possibly have had their best long-term interests in mind but this plan was doomed by the fact many people from the top ministers in Ottawa right down to the school janitors considered Indigenous people inferior breeds of human. And of course the job of school caretaker tended to offer violent abusers and sex offenders unchecked free reign and protection.

 

I hesitated before posting the Holocaust comparison because I know it's essentially the nuclear option in a subject like this, but the pieces of your comment that I bolded sum up the reasons why I felt it was worth it to do so.

 

I'm not saying that, when measured in the number of people that were killed, the events are comparable. Under that measure they're not in the same galaxy. My point was that you can draw a lot of parallels between the ideologies that caused the Holocaust and the ideologies that were responsible for the Residential School system; some of which I bolded in your comment.

 

Yet, we treat one event with the reverence and respect it deserves while acting incredulous towards the other when it was happening for the same xenophobic reasons. I don't understand why we can't just say that the Residential Schools were horrible institutions without feeling the need to qualify that opinion.


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#140 Rob Randall

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Posted 02 June 2021 - 02:29 PM

I always hesitate to use historical events due to the tendency of a few folks here to use it as an occasion to play "Libtards Using Godwin's Law" but there are significant similarities and differences, aside from the astronomically greater number of Holocaust victims. Nazism and Canada's efforts to "tame" Indigenous peoples both bubble up from the same late 19th century White-supremacist sewer pipe. 

 

Yet, we treat one event with the reverence and respect it deserves while acting incredulous towards the other when it was happening for the same xenophobic reasons. I don't understand why we can't just say that the Residential Schools were horrible institutions without feeling the need to qualify that opinion.

 

 

The defeat of Hitler gave everyone, including Germans, the opportunity to immediately park that hatred away. Even those with bloody hands claimed they were just following the orders of a supremely powerful but extinct regime. We have no such luck.


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