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Missing Middle Housing Initiative (MMHI) in the City of Victoria


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#481 Barrrister

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 07:43 AM

Stephen: If you removed the large corner multiplex units from the agenda this would be more acceptable to a lot of people. But in addition some historic or cultural neighbourhoods like James Bay, Fernwood and Rockland should also be removed. These historic areas are important to preserve if for no other reason than our tourist trade which employees so many people here in Victoria. In those areas projects could still be done but they would have to go through the existing rezoning process to make sure that they fit into the needs and character of those historically significant communities. Certainly freeing up the remainder of the city is more than enough to keep the developers happy for years to come.

 

This is the sort of compromise and forward thinking that would be the hallmark of a good, perhaps a great mayor. Members of council would be able to go into the next election having put to bed what might become a very divisive issue if passed as is.  



#482 spanky123

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 07:47 AM

I am surprised at the results given that Ross Crockford exposed (in Focus) an organized effort to seed the survey to support MM. 



#483 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 07:52 AM

I am surprised at the results given that Ross Crockford exposed (in Focus) an organized effort to seed the survey to support MM. 

 

 

Only a passionate few know the City of Victoria is about to approve three-storey condos everywhere.

 

 

But as it’s now becoming apparent, the trouble with such limited engagement is it gives little indication of what the general public knows or thinks about a subject. “Real surveys have random samples of populations, and a range of questions which should be neutral, to create a projectable sample. They have to look like the whole population. That is clearly what is not going on here,” says Ian McKinnon, a former president of Decima Research who’s also served in central agencies of federal and BC governments. 

 

Instead, consultations that are open to anyone frequently get dominated by small groups that feel passionately about an issue. “My concern is often: How are people informed about it, and who responds?” McKinnon asks. “With almost all public consultations, those who are strongly motivated often use their networks to encourage participation by people who they know to have the same viewpoint as themselves.”

 

Online consultations can also get skewed by people giving multiple responses, McKinnon notes, or chiming in from other jurisdictions. (It happens: one eagle-eyed member of the Downtown Residents’ Association noted that during the runup to Council’s approval of the controversial Telus Ocean, 81 of 140 letters of support came from people associated with the project, including Telus employees from other parts of Canada.) On Homes For Living’s forum, members and developers regularly urge each other to respond positively to surveys, consultations and hearings on projects across Greater Victoria, with little concern whether they live in the municipality or not. Is that appropriate? “I never know myself,” Phil MacKellar, an HFL spokeperson tells me; he lives in Fernwood, but recently filled out a survey to support infill housing in Oak Bay. “Because Victoria’s never amalgamated, it feels like I’m part of multiple cities. A lot of people who live in Saanich but work in Victoria, or vice-versa, feel the same way.”

 

Andrew says some respondents have tried to skew his survey by using false names and email addresses, but they will be “filtered out” by administrators. The City’s Have Your Say platform only requires participants to provide an email address and a postal code; I was able to register different addresses and take the same survey several times. Given Missing Middle’s huge stakes, I asked the City if it was worried about its surveys being gamed. The City replied in a statement that it uses “industry standard engagement tools for local government,” and that “all online engagement is based on good faith.” (Although some platforms, such as Vancouver-based PlaceSpeak, go farther to prevent fraud by verifying every respondent’s physical address.) “Public engagement during policy development is important,” the City concluded, “but the real test of public position on the final bylaw is a public hearing.”

 

 

https://www.focusonv...a/reporting/61/


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 14 July 2022 - 07:52 AM.


#484 Nparker

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 08:03 AM

 

 

...Real surveys have random samples of populations, and a range of questions which should be neutral, to create a projectable sample. They have to look like the whole population...

The CoV does not believe in this sort of public engagement. 99% of their surveys are designed to confirm a predetermined outcome.


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#485 spanky123

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 08:09 AM

The comment from the article I was referring to is this. Clearly there is a pro dev group that organizes to try and tilt surveys. From the comments the City doesn't really care either.

 

 On the Discord forum run by the 300-strong pro-development group Homes For Living, dgrypma posted the link and wrote, “Stephen Andrew is asking for feedback on missing middle—you know the drill”. 


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#486 Mike K.

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 10:07 AM

It's a continuation of the grass roots efforts of VV members from over 15 years ago, but now it has become a political movement under HFL. That's where it loses traction, when people on one side of the spectrum overwhelmingly represent a group.

VV was famously/infamously split between left and right leaning points of view, established/wealthy individuals and young people just coming up in the world, newcomer or old guard, etc. It managed to bring people together irrespective of those divisions, who were united in doing away with height limits, low densities, and the gatekeepers at various steps in the development approvals process.

I'm surprised, though, that despite the rhetoric and effort, the group was unable to cook the results of SA’s survey.

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#487 Barrrister

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 10:53 AM

There is a lot more opposition than some may think and, if passed, it could end up being a surprise issue in the upcoming election. 



#488 spanky123

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 02:12 PM

There is a lot more opposition than some may think and, if passed, it could end up being a surprise issue in the upcoming election. 

 

Well Stephen seemed to imply that the vote would influence his decision. He has saddled himself now if voting no was not his intent.



#489 Mike K.

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Posted 14 July 2022 - 07:08 PM

Which makes it all the more peculiar that HFL couldn't sway the outcome, given the councillor's public statement about the survey results helping shape his vote.


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#490 spanky123

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 05:15 AM

Which makes it all the more peculiar that HFL couldn't sway the outcome, given the councillor's public statement about the survey results helping shape his vote.


Maybe they tried but enough other people voted against.

#491 Tom Braybrook

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 10:28 AM

pushed this motion through to public hearing on august 4 - "councillors Geoff Young, Charlayne Thornton-Joe, Ben Isitt and Sharmarke Dubow opposed"

 

you will note that SA, rather than voting against and essentially putting this over to next Council, voted to move ahead

 

https://www.cheknews...ttempt-1060696/

 

my favourite part was when Lisa Helpless faked out Councillors with faulty math about the cost of postponement and faint hope for some "potential" future funding from the feds



#492 Tom Braybrook

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 10:32 AM

from the article...

 

Helps said. “We’re in a different era, we’re in a post COVID era, if people are away on August the fourth, it doesn’t matter, they can send a video in advance and as Councillor Thorton-Joe says that might not be good enough they can call in.”

 

 

well that statement is at least half-true, the "it doesn't matter" part is spot on - we know what the outcome will be already ;-)


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#493 Nparker

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 11:31 AM

...Helps said. “We’re in a different era, we’re in a post COVID era, if people are away on August the fourth, it doesn’t matter....


Post edited by admin.

#494 Mike K.

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 12:16 PM

^That’s uncalled for.

If anyone wants to make disparaging comments find another place to do it on. Not here.
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#495 Nparker

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 12:31 PM

You have no idea what I meant. Please don't presume.



#496 Tailor

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Posted 16 July 2022 - 05:52 PM

He loves to quote tweet me - and yes, I'm blocked by Aryze and there's something that strikes me as really wrong about that.

I'm surprised somebody hasn't started a @BlockedbyAryze as a twitter account.

I've also noted he's added "land economist" to his titles, I'd love to see his actual economics credentials.



#497 Tailor

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Posted 16 July 2022 - 05:52 PM

He loves to quote tweet me - and yes, I'm blocked by Aryze and there's something that strikes me as really wrong about that.

I'm surprised somebody hasn't started a @BlockedbyAryze as a twitter account.

I've also noted he's added "land economist" to his titles, I'd love to see his actual economics credentials.



#498 Tailor

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Posted 16 July 2022 - 06:29 PM

He loves to quote tweet me - and yes, I'm blocked by Aryze and there's something that strikes me as really wrong about that.

I'm surprised somebody hasn't started a @BlockedbyAryze as a twitter account.

I've also noted he's added "land economist" to his titles, I'd love to see his actual economics credentials.


I was sorely tempted to grab that Twitter account, just for giggles - but I have no more burner email accounts or time to do so.

It's still up for grabs!

#499 Tom Braybrook

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Posted 16 July 2022 - 06:41 PM

I was sorely tempted to grab that Twitter account, just for giggles - but I have no more burner email accounts or time to do so.

It's still up for grabs!

is it though?

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#500 Tailor

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Posted 16 July 2022 - 06:42 PM

Sorry for the repeats, on my phone and can't figure out how to edit/ delete posts.

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