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Missing Middle Housing Initiative (MMHI) in the City of Victoria


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#2201 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:04 AM

Those who say say that new housing without government subsidies will be affordable are either naive or lying. But the new housing that's built today will become the adorable housing of 30-50 years down the line, as long as we keep building housing to meet the demand of the market.

 

Government subsidies contribute to the higher taxes that displace residents, right?

 

We've also shown that old housing stock does not decrease in value, as in becoming affordable. 50 year old apartments are still out of reach of many renters earning average incomes in the CoV.


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#2202 Nparker

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:09 AM

...stop with the insane net zero requirements and allow for “Active Homes” that are less expensive to build but have way less embodied energy to build them...

...Affordable building is nearly impossible now. Even if the land was free...

Exactly. Ever more demanding government policies and building codes have had a huge effect on construction costs, but all we ever hear about is "greedy developers" trying to make a buck off the back of the little guy.



#2203 GaryOak

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:11 AM

Yes I agree the only way housing will become adorable is through inflation or a crash, this won't be an easy correction. Also the reason why the world wide movement for missing middle is to influence local government to change zoning and other levers available to them, to increase the housing supply and livability. It's a lot harder to influence higher levels of government than local ones.

#2204 GaryOak

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:15 AM

Government subsidies contribute to the higher taxes that displace residents, right?

We've also shown that old housing stock does not decrease in value, as in becoming affordable. 50 year old apartments are still out of reach of many renters earning average incomes in the CoV.

are you not even reading the other half of the sentence, you need to keep building at or above the level of demand for it to become the adorable housing of the future.

#2205 Nparker

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:23 AM

... Also the reason why the world wide movement for missing middle is to influence local government to change zoning and other levers available to them, to increase the housing supply...

There is nothing affordable about the (so-called) local MMHI.



#2206 GaryOak

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:31 AM

There is nothing affordable about the (so-called) local MMHI.


It may not be subsidized or even below market but any addition of housing in the long run makes the city more affordable than it otherwise would have been.

#2207 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:34 AM

are you not even reading the other half of the sentence, you need to keep building at or above the level of demand for it to become the adorable housing of the future.

Not in a region where demand always outstrips supply.

We’ve been talking about this problem since the 1960s.

But now, Victoria council may have quashed 1,600-units of rental housing, while getting elected on a build-more-housing platform.
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#2208 dasmo

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:39 AM

It may not be subsidized or even below market but any addition of housing in the long run makes the city more affordable than it otherwise would have been.

Like it has for Vancouver?
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#2209 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:40 AM

It may not be subsidized or even below market but any addition of housing in the long run makes the city more affordable than it otherwise would have been.


But you also told us that gentrification displaced your parents.

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#2210 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:41 AM

Hats off to Gary, here. He’s standing up for a train of thought and is holding his (her?) own very well.

I think the takeaway here is real life is not as simple as Housing Twitter tries to suggest. The realities are rarely like hopeful people want them to be, because the reality in their mind, is not how reality is actually controlled in practice.
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#2211 GaryOak

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 11:54 AM

The biggest reason why I started my arguments in the thread was to try to dispell the idea that the missing middle housing initiative and 15 minutes cities are some conspiracy by some malevolent actor. When an actual fact they are policies put forward by people trying to do the right thing and make the world a better place. It is to be seen in the way the policy has been implemented in Victoria whether it will be helpful or harmful.

#2212 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:07 PM

The biggest reason why I started my arguments in the thread was to try to dispell the idea that the missing middle housing initiative and 15 minutes cities are some conspiracy by some malevolent actor. When an actual fact they are policies put forward by people trying to do the right thing and make the world a better place. It is to be seen in the way the policy has been implemented in Victoria whether it will be helpful or harmful.

Nobody here says it’s a conspiracy, but it’s important to understand that something like ‘making the world a better place’ is subjective.

It’s also rooted in forcing choices some people don’t want. That’s why it’s controversial. And it is going to make some people very wealthy, and make others struggle more, but it’s being packaged as altruism. That is not how a better world is created, but it’s a major/central by-product of the concept.

You know from your own family’s experience how a long-time land holding was forced out of your family’s hands by wealthy newcomers. 15 minute cities will do this on a systematic scale, forcing SFD owners to sell and move to avoid taxation they can’t afford.

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#2213 GaryOak

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:13 PM

I could argue so more on that front but that should be enough for today. Time to get some pie.
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#2214 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:15 PM

Granted, the 15 minute concept isn’t “bad,” it has a lot of merit for obvious reasons. But it is not being sold fairly. It is not addressing the issues of displacement and affordability sufficiently, and instead tries to assuage concerns through feel-good claims that are nebulous and non-committal.

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#2215 dasmo

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:16 PM

I’m saying it’s a conspiracy.

Not like Gary frames it maybe but it takes some serious conspiring to get every city official in the world to be spouting “15 minute cities” at the same time. Or is that just the result of random rainbow gazing?

I do agree there are a lot of useful idiots who think they are doing good when they pick up the torch. I might have been one before 2020.
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#2216 Mike K.

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:19 PM

It’s the enlightened talking point of 2023. The if-you-know-you-know thing. It changes all the time, so the concept is the hot talking point of this year but it’ll be something different next year.

Last year it was missing middle, and come this year …missing middle is not going to deliver the affordable housing its proponents thought it would. In fact the not so missing missing middle inventory we saw first out of the gate hit the market at above $1 million per unit.
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#2217 Nparker

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:24 PM

[The MMHI is] also rooted in forcing choices some people don’t want. That’s why it’s controversial. And it is going to make some people very wealthy, and make others struggle more, but it’s being packaged as altruism...

Exactly. I am suspect of any political decision that purports to be altruistic. Rarely is this ever true. That's simply not how politics works.



#2218 lanforod

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 12:56 PM

I remember when my parents had to sell their house on lands end that was in my family before the road was built, our property taxes kept rising do to all the multi-millionaires moving in around us gentrifying the place with their waterfront estates.

 

Thats not a sob sorry. Thats a rags to riches story. Maybe they had to sell, but their property value skyrocketed too then.


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#2219 Stephen James

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 01:32 PM

Thats not a sob sorry. Thats a rags to riches story. Maybe they had to sell, but their property value skyrocketed too then.

I'll point out that a central argument for the housing activist left is the idea that you should have some right to stay put...



#2220 Stephen James

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Posted 14 March 2023 - 01:39 PM

It’s the enlightened talking point of 2023. The if-you-know-you-know thing. It changes all the time, so the concept is the hot talking point of this year but it’ll be something different next year.

Last year it was missing middle, and come this year …missing middle is not going to deliver the affordable housing its proponents thought it would. In fact the not so missing missing middle inventory we saw first out of the gate hit the market at above $1 million per unit.

Yes.

And none of the points GaryOak is making about MM or 15 min are new.

 

What's so offensive about the left wing operators is that, exactly like Trump or any populist, they're more than happy to fuel the fantasy that electing them, MMHI, 15 min cities will somehow provide them all a home for 30% of their net income. That's how they got elected and so... if that kind of lying is necessary for politics, the leftist narcissists can have it. Sure doesn't look like well-meaning people when I'm siting in the room looking at all those hopeful faces and seeing the likes of Caradonna, Dell, Alto, Thompson more than happy to suggest that we'll have affordable homes for all in the 19 square kloms that is Victoria. Ask them to exlain the math...

 

Pathetic grift to get elected.

 

The last I saw as big as the homes for living event at the cathedral was a Trump event on tv...


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