642 replies to this topic

[Victoria Watcher]

The two bank robbers who died in a shootout with police in Saanich in June were not trying for suicide-by-cop but rather planned a major confrontation to “go out in a blaze of glory,” former B.C. solicitor general Kash Heed said after assessing details released on Friday about the gun battle.

 

They expected to die and wanted notoriety, he said Sunday.

 

Normally bank robbers are in and out of an institution in less than two minutes. “The fact that these people remained there for 16 minutes — you knew they were there to confront authority.”

 

 

https://www.timescol...hootout-6419194

 

 

 

 

  In the 16 minutes the two men were in the bank, police could only get so much detail.  But did some of the detail include that the men had body armor (an indication that any gunfight might be one-sided or at least extended)?  Did the 16 minutes in the bank not make commanders suspect they were waiting for cops, to ambush them?

 

What did police know or not know when they arrived in the van?

 

And what can we learn?

 

 

 

 

 

Except it appears at the very least the driver of the van or who ever was supervising him DID NOT KNOW "they were there to confront authority".  And probably each of the six police shot did not know, or they would have entered the parking lot with more cover.  Or not entered the parking lot.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 23 January 2023 - 03:27 AM.

[pontcanna]

One year later: Healing and reflection after shooting at Saanich bank

One Victoria officer and two Saanich officers have not returned to work due to injuries received that day. All three have long roads ahead in their recovery, the police chiefs said.

 

Some of the cards and well wishes that poured into Saanich police station in the days following the shooting at the Bank of Montreal on Shelbourne Street last year. 

 

The year since six police officers were shot outside a Shelbourne Street bank has been a time for healing, reflection, learning and striving to move forward for those who were involved.

Saanich Police Chief Dean Duthie said the department had to “move through the trauma and really focus on our healing and recovery as a collective, as well as individuals. It taught us lessons about ourselves, about our training, about how we do our jobs.

“I look at that as a positive because it helps us keep learning, keep improving and keep growing in a forward-looking direction.”

Victoria Police Chief Del Manak said that as he reflects on the day, “I’m extremely proud of the officers that rose to the occasion.

“They were running towards gunfire and I believe that this is the highest level that you will ever see of sacrifice, courage and (seeing) who will take action. … You are just not going to see anything more than that.”

Police received an outpouring of support and gratitude from the community and a fund for officers reached $277,000 by August.

It was late morning one year ago when two disaffected 22-year-old brothers staged a robbery at the small Bank of Montreal branch on Shelbourne Street.

Brothers Matthew and Isaac Auchterlonie, of the Shawnigan Lake area, died after being shot by police. No civilians were injured.

One Victoria officer and two Saanich officers have not returned to work due to injuries received that day. All three have long roads ahead in their recovery, the chiefs said.

Manak expects today to be a “heavy” day which will bring back memories for staff.

Manak said it is okay to feel vulnerable, to seek help and experience a range of emotions. The goal is to want to allow people to feel safe and supported in whatever they need.

An informal lunch is planned where staff can chat.

An investigation by the Vancouver Island Integrated Major Crime Unit found that the brothers held anti-government and anti-police views and that they did not expect to survive the confrontation.

More: https://www.timescol...-street-7205795

[pontcanna]

Podcast shares insider accounts of Saanich bank shootout

• Times Colonist October 22, 2023 - Louise Dickson

ADRIAN LAM, TIMES COLONISTFirst responders at the scene of a bank robbery at the Bank of Montreal branch in the 3600 block of Shelbourne Street on June 28, 2022. The robbery is the subject of a new podcast series that provides a glimpse into the experiences of police officers that day.

 

For the past year, Victoria police Staff Sgt. John Musicco has been thinking non-stop about his decision to risk the lives of his emergency response team to rescue hostages from a Shelbourne Street bank on the morning of June 28, 2022.

 

Musicco, leader of the Greater Victoria Emergency Response Team, and six of his tactical officers were pulled from a highrisk arrest in downtown Victoria that morning and dispatched to a bank robbery and hostage-taking by two armed gunmen wearing body armour and balaclavas.

 

Musicco switched his radio over to the main Saanich channel and listened to the broadcast of the bank robbery in progress.

 

“I’ve been on this job for almost 20 years and you can hear it in people’s voices. This is serious,” Musicco recalled in an interview on the Victoria police union’s True Blue podcast.

 

One year after the bank robbery and shootout, the series, produced by retired Staff Sgt. Matt Waterman, is taking an indepth look at the events of that day, which left the two young gunmen dead and six officers injured by gunfire.

 

It’s the first time the public has heard a detailed, first-hand account of what happened that day.

 

“I usually don’t have a ton of emotion in these incidents but I had a little bit of anger starting to creep in, in a sense that I felt my gun was working too slow,” Musicco told Waterman.

 

“I wasn’t getting the desired effect. Well, these guys are wearing body armour. I’m not seeing the results that I want, which is to stop them shooting at us. I just remember staring at my pistol and wondering if I could push the slide to work faster.”

 

Later, Const. Mike Jarosz, the only ERT member not injured that day, told Musicco that when he came out of the van and saw the shot-out front windshield and casings everywhere, he thought Musicco, the driver, was dead.

 

Victoria police Const. Ben King is also interviewed in an episode of the True Blue podcast. The former ERT member said he remembers the weird feeling he had when the call came over the radio.

 

“When we pulled into the parking lot, the van door slid open and I saw one of the robbers turn around with an SKS rifle and in my brain it was like ‘oh [expletive]’ This was the real deal. We were going to be in some trouble.”

 

King was shot in the right thigh while he was still in the van. His leg was completely numb, but he said he felt an astronomical amount of pain.

 

The episode with King focuses on the chaos of that day, his injury and his recovery. He spent eight months on the couch and has only recently started walking without crutches.

 

Waterman also discusses how the medical program in place for ERT officers — Tactical Emergency Medical Support — saved lives that day.

 

Waterman, who was executive director of the Victoria City Police Union, is hoping employees of WorkSafeBC, the Office of the Police Complaint Commissioner and investigators with the Independent Investigations Office will tune in to the podcast.

 

“There’s always ‘police save the day’ but the after-the-incident processes are really just as stressful as the actual incident,” said Waterman. “I’m hoping people see that. They all have a job to do and a process to follow, but I think part of our job is to tell them how difficult it is for the police to deal with these things.”

 

More: https://digitaltimes...281569475406058

 

[Victoria Watcher]

Still strange to me there has never been a thorough investigation of police tactics here, considering the injuries and deaths.

[pontcanna]

Still strange to me that there has never been a thorough investigation/inquest regarding the brother's background (at least nothing that has been made public to date).

[Blair M.]

I think the Saanich PD have likely been legally required to analyse the events of the day down to the second, and as a result, they have a firm understanding of pretty much every beat of the shoot-out. 

Saanich PD have released whatever limited information might be relevant for public consumption, and I suspect they have withheld information they consider relevant only to the future operations of the Saanich PD. 

The public has no reason to expect a full briefing on each and every decision made during the encounter, in fact such briefings would be counterproductive as they relate to future Saanich PD operations in a similar vein.

The two brothers are dead, and the process behind their radicalization has dropped in importance as a result.

Understood to have been radicalized via forms of social media, and their own mutual interest in guns and violence - is there really anything more of value the public needs to know about these two deceased wannabe cop killers?

[todd]

Just glad it wasn’t near the large propane silo up the street.

[Victoria Watcher]

 

Understood to have been radicalized via forms of social media, and their own mutual interest in guns and violence - is there really anything more of value the public needs to know about these two deceased wannabe cop killers?

 

Yes, I'd like to know more about what they did and said while in the bank for so long.

 

 

 

11:02 a.m.  — Suspects enter the bank

 

RCMP and police have said the Auchterlonies went into the BMO branch just after 11 a.m. Investigators on Friday said they got cash fairly quickly, but stayed in the bank for more than 11 minutes. A separate report said they were pacing and looking out the window.

 

11:18 a.m. — Suspects leave bank

 

RCMP said the men left the bank 16 minutes after they went inside. Mounties' investigation did not focus on what transpired afterward, though details were released in a report from B.C.'s police watchdog in December.

 

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...-rcmp-1.6721570

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 October 2023 - 07:10 AM.

[todd]

In the store parking lot the other day. Officers and green outfits come pouring out of what I assume is the current emergency response van, they looked very hungry to accomplish their mission. Everybody in their wake looked nervous. Turns out they were just grocery shopping. They seemed like a good bunch.

Edited by todd, 22 October 2023 - 07:17 AM.

[Blair M.]

Haven't Saanich PD indicated that the wanna-be killers were waiting that length of time in order to bait the police into a shoot-out?

I think Saanich PD have indicated pretty clearly that this was the primary purpose of their entire effort. Their undertaking had nothing to do with keeping and spending the any money.

They went there to die in a shoot out with police.

 

I'm a pretty curious guy by nature, but I long ago quit believing that any government agency, which includes all law enforcement, would willingly share information with the public if they felt they might get away with only releasing what they felt they had to.

For confirmation that such lack of detailed reporting by police departments is all but ubiquitous, all you have to do is look at the two page list of holes in what the Victoria PD have reported to date as it relates to the murder on Carberry Gardens. If we were to take the information provided by Victoria PD for the Carberry Gardens murder to date at face value, it wouldn't even make a good murder mystery it's so full of blatant plot holes.

Granted those plot holes are designed to preserve certain elements of the ongoing investigation, something that may also be at play with the wanna-be cop killers. As a member of the public, you really never know what's up in these instances, as the release of information is always tailored by law enforcement to either serve their purpose, or to serve their ongoing investigation.

[Victoria Watcher]

I don't know.

 

I think an investigation might say they did everything right, and they would be happy to share that conclusion.

 

But they have instead shared no conclusions.

 

If police had not shown up, maybe they would have just got back in their car and driven away.

 

Police also say they chose this bank and branch more or less at random.  Yet they share the same last name as a local BOM branch manager.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 October 2023 - 07:33 AM.

[Mike K.]

If police had not shown up, maybe they would have just got back in their car and driven away.

 

 

I don't think that was an option.

[Blair M.]

I certainly agree with you there, in that there has been no single comprehensive report on the incident released to the public, and anybody interested in the case has had to put together information released in dribs and drabs by various participants in the event, this in order to get some sort of understanding as to what went on that day.

To be sure, there are questions the public may still have that nobody in a position of authority seems remotely interested in answering.

[Victoria Watcher]

I don't think that was an option.

 

Do we know that?

 

We know they had left the bank when police arrived.  Were they going to stay in the parking lot?  Or leave?

 

What did they SAY to people or to one another while in the bank?

 

Did the parents, or their sister and brothers ever speak out?  Did we ever hear what a search of their Duncan home (their mothers I think) ever turned up?

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 October 2023 - 07:45 AM.

[Mike K.]

Hold on, am I missing something? Were they not 'robbing' the bank?

[Blair M.]

Or did they leave a manifesto?

Cop killers are usually rooted in some sort of twisted ideology that they often can't resist putting into a writing, this to be read following their arrest or death.

If there was a manifesto, does law enforcement have that manifesto in their possession?

Did the family in any way curate whatever information was acquired by law enforcement after the fact, or is law enforcement confident that they had/have unfettered access to all relevant evidence?

 

Lots of potential questions. Hard to know if they'll ever be answered though.

Edited by Blair M., 22 October 2023 - 07:51 AM.

[Blair M.]

Hold on, am I missing something? Were they not 'robbing' the bank?

I think the premise was always that robbing the bank was merely a means to an end.

The actual goal being a shoot-out with police.

Edited by Blair M., 22 October 2023 - 07:50 AM.

[Victoria Watcher]

Hold on, am I missing something? Were they not 'robbing' the bank?

 

Ya, they successfully robed the bank in the first few minutes, but then hung around.

[Victoria Watcher]

Did the family in any way curate whatever information was acquired by law enforcement after the fact, or is law enforcement confident that they had/have unfettered access to all relevant evidence?

 

Unless I'm mistaken we never ever heard anything from the family.  Mother, father, or at least 2 or 3 siblings.

 

And next to nothing from bank customers or employees.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 22 October 2023 - 07:54 AM.

[Mike K.]

Right, so there was no option of police not showing up. The 911 call(s) were already being made.