5667 replies to this topic

[Matt R.]

I hope they use plenty of gel, that’s a big pipe!

Matt.

[Mike K.]

Must have been an awkward visit to the drug store.

[VicHockeyFan]

THIS VIDEO shows the exact method this foreman told me would be used to bore the hole and drag the pipe through.

[Cassidy]

I wonder if the "gel" being referenced is actually the bentonite in VHF's linked video, or if the gel is something else?

 

Bentonite is a clay/water mix delivered to the job site in a weirdly shaped tanker truck.

Whatever substance the "gel" references, they have to be using a lot of it.

[tjv]

I am curious who is actually paying for this project?  I know there are federal and provincial contributions?  How much does each municipality contribute?  The CRD contribute?  etc.  I know there are CRD and municipal sewage fees, do those go to the funding of this plant?

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but is this plant just for the municipalities of Oak Bay, Esquimalt, Victoria and Saanich?

[VicHockeyFan]

Oak Bay, Victoria, Esquimalt, Saanich, View Royal, Colwood and Langford.

 

Who pays what is a complicated scale.

[tjv]

I just found this after a little searching:

 

The Government of Canada is contributing up to $120 million through the Building Canada Fund – Major Infrastructure Component towards the McLoughlin Point Wastewater Treatment Plant; and up to $50 million through the Green Infrastructure Fund towards the conveyance system project.

The Government of British Columbia will provide up to $248 million towards the three components of the project.

P3 Canada will provide up to $41 million towards the Residuals Treatment Facility through the P3 Canada Fund.

The Capital Regional District is providing $306 million for the three project components and will be responsible for any additional costs.

 

https://www.crd.bc.c...ernance/funding

 

So I take it then Oak Bay, Victoria, Esquimalt, Saanich, View Royal, Colwood and Langford pay the CRD portion and all other municipalities pay like North Saanich, Central Saanich, Highlands, Sooke, Metchosin, etc pay nothing?

[VicHockeyFan]

Yes, if you are not in a municipality hooked into the system you pay nothing.  Well, except your provincial and federal components.

Edited by VicHockeyFan, 13 March 2018 - 07:20 AM.

[JohnN]

Yes, if you are not in a municipality hooked into the system you pay nothing.  Well, except your provincial and federal components.

Indeed, since province and feds are contributing, all Canadians, BC residents are thus boosting their taxes by a tiny amount too. However, its interesting about the P3 subsidy, suggesting that while CRD got some contribution that way, how does (and for how much) the P3 private partner get to make a profit off the sludge plant? What was the Harper feds and Christi Clark provincial policy makers thinking? While P3s are intended to lower capital costs for government infrastructure, in this case its $41 million out of total capital cost (not including interest) of about $800 million. For that $41 million, does the CRD get to clamp down on transparency of the sewage plant project due to the P3 partner wanting confidentiality? 

 

However, those not hooked up to sewers that would "feed" the sewage plant are not totally bounded by municipal/district territory, as there can be residents in Saanich, Langford, Colwood, View Royal who are still on septic fields. Colwood and Langford have a large proportion not on sewage lines at this time (although could be more pressure to get them on sewage plant in order to promote a lot more residential development) Map of sewage line areas shows areas outside of sewage trunks that would lead to Mcloughlin Point plant.

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[VicHockeyFan]

John, does even a single home in Saanich connect into the Peninsula system?

 

Or might you have a similar map of that system and its collectors? 

[JohnN]

John, does even a single home in Saanich connect into the Peninsula system?

 

Or might you have a similar map of that system and its collectors? 

No I don't think there are any District of Saanich connexions to the Saanich Peninsula sewage plant, CRD says:

Boundary

The Districts of North and Central Saanich, the Town of Sidney, the Airport Authority and the Tsaycum and Pauquachin First Nation make up the boundary for the service as outlined on the following Service Area Map of the plant service are is in pink colour:

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[rambaldi]

earlier this week...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ks112]

Indeed, since province and feds are contributing, all Canadians, BC residents are thus boosting their taxes by a tiny amount too. However, its interesting about the P3 subsidy, suggesting that while CRD got some contribution that way, how does (and for how much) the P3 private partner get to make a profit off the sludge plant? What was the Harper feds and Christi Clark provincial policy makers thinking? While P3s are intended to lower capital costs for government infrastructure, in this case its $41 million out of total capital cost (not including interest) of about $800 million. For that $41 million, does the CRD get to clamp down on transparency of the sewage plant project due to the P3 partner wanting confidentiality? 

 

However, those not hooked up to sewers that would "feed" the sewage plant are not totally bounded by municipal/district territory, as there can be residents in Saanich, Langford, Colwood, View Royal who are still on septic fields. Colwood and Langford have a large proportion not on sewage lines at this time (although could be more pressure to get them on sewage plant in order to promote a lot more residential development) Map of sewage line areas shows areas outside of sewage trunks that would lead to Mcloughlin Point plant.

The private partner in a P3 is entitled to make a return on the equity they invested, usually around 10%.  However this is assuming everything goes according to their bid which the contract signed is based on.  The CRD will only pay for the amount specified in the contract which comes from their bid, so if the construction goes over budget or if it costs more to operate and maintain then the private partner is on the hook for that and it will eat into their profits.  Vice versa if the actual costs are less.  

Edited by ks112, 26 March 2018 - 10:42 AM.

[spanky123]

The private partner in a P3 is entitled to make a return on the equity they invested, usually around 10%.  However this is assuming everything goes according to their bid which the contract signed is based on.  The CRD will only pay for the amount specified in the contract which comes from their bid, so if the construction goes over budget or if it costs more to operate and maintain then the private partner is on the hook for that and it will eat into their profits.  Vice versa if the actual costs are less.  

 

In theory that is how it is supposed to work but in practicality it almost never works that way unless of course the cost is under budget and everyone is happy.

 

What happens if costs start to escalate is that the P3 private partner starts to stall or customers start to complain about delays or poor performance and then to avoid a public outcry the wallets open up and the partner gets pretty much anything they ask for. 

[ks112]

In theory that is how it is supposed to work but in practicality it almost never works that way unless of course the cost is under budget and everyone is happy.

 

What happens if costs start to escalate is that the P3 private partner starts to stall or customers start to complain about delays or poor performance and then to avoid a public outcry the wallets open up and the partner gets pretty much anything they ask for. 

That's incorrect at least for BC Projects.  The p3 partner finances the capital cost of the project with a mixture of equity and debt which they take out up front.  Once construction is complete they get a substantial completion payment from the government which is usually 40% of the total capital cost, if the construction is delayed then that payment will be delayed and the private partner will incur the extra interest costs.  They rest is then paid over the life of the contract subject to the performance of the asset.  So if performance is bad then the private partner doesn't get paid and their lenders will step in if necessary because that is the party ultimately holding the bag if things go wrong. 

 

This contractual structure has the biggest penalty for projects being late or not performing up to standard.  

[Mike K.]

A second crane is being erected at the sewage treatment construction site.

 

[spanky123]

 

 

This contractual structure has the biggest penalty for projects being late or not performing up to standard.  

 

The most recent relevant example of our P3 partnership in Victoria was the arena project. You are correct in that we got an arena built by RG Properties for the contracted price of thirty odd million dollars.

 

If you recall though, there were all sorts of delays and the project was rushed at the 1th hour in order to allow the Rod Stewart concert to proceed on time. As compensation for the additional costs that RG faced, the City deferred payment of the fees that RG was supposed to pay to operate the arena. In addition, when the initial term expired, the agreement was renewed with RG without any competitive process. Whether the operations fees have ever been paid has never been publicly stated as far as I know.  

Edited by spanky123, 27 March 2018 - 10:02 AM.

[jonny]

I don't know what the agreement is specifically between the city and RG properties, but the city has historically brought in over half a million dollars in revenue per year from the arena (in 2016 the amount was $621k). 

 

http://www.victoria....s/2016 SOFI.pdf

[spanky123]

I don't know what the agreement is specifically between the city and RG properties, but the city has historically brought in over half a million dollars in revenue per year from the arena (in 2016 the amount was $621k). 

 

http://www.victoria....s/2016 SOFI.pdf

 

From what I know that is from ticket sales. Part of the agreement with the City was to remit a portion of every ticket sold. I would hope that they have been turning over the money to the City.

[VicHockeyFan]

In addition, when the initial term expired, the agreement was renewed with RG without any competitive process. Whether the operations fees have ever been paid has never been publicly stated as far as I know.  

 

I'm not sure that's quite right.  They had an initial term (20?  25 years?), and it was extended (well before it was set end) by Mayor Fortin when they said they needed that security to get a WHL team.