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Victoria homelessness and street-related issues


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#18741 Stephen Andrew

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 09:48 PM

Back to whichever communities they called home several months ago. I don't believe for a second that the majority of BHP "campers" were citizens of the CoV pre-COVID.

Enforce overnight camping bylaws now!

That statement sounds simple, but it is completely unrealistic.

Under the Charter of Rights and Freedom, we simply cannot force people to go anywhere they do not want to. We cannot insist a camper moves to “where they came from” more than can anyone force me to go back to Ontario where I landed when I came to Canada.

Let’s be constructive.

Yes, the camping bylaw should be enforced. I do not see that happening until the pandemic is over. The votes are not on council. That’s realistic.

Again - the region - the ENTIRE region - needs to step up and help manage the homeless situation. That means Saanich, View Royal, Oak Bay and so on.

Instead those outside Victoria spout the line “That’s where the services are” as though it it a free pass to have COV handle the issue for the region. It’s a cop out.

And if B.C. Housing wants to open up more units, it needs to do a better job than the farcical approach it took in Burnside Gorge. Any community watching what’s happening here, would oppose “any” housing distribution.

Edited by Stephen Andrew, 26 July 2020 - 09:50 PM.


#18742 Spy Black

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 10:23 PM

Under the Charter of Rights and Freedom, we simply cannot force people to go anywhere they do not want to. We cannot insist a camper moves to “where they came from” more than can anyone force me to go back to Ontario where I landed when I came to Canada.

Is this 100% accurate Stephen?

I believe it was a Supreme Court of B.C. case that permitted camping in parks, and during the night time only. The Charter may have factored into portions of the decision, but the Charter itself doesn't really guarantee one the right to camp anywhere they like, anytime they want.

 

Many of these people are mentally ill, and as such there are tools available to oblige them to seek treatment. Granted, those tools are rarely used, and have largely fallen out of social fashion ... but what the majority of residents of the COV are actually saying is that they demand a return to "law and order" style governance.

 

I think the SJW's have largely taken over the dialog, whereas the actual majority of residents want by-laws enforced, and exactly the same treatment dished out when it comes to breaking laws and by-laws that ... let's say you or I would experience if we were to blatantly break the law.

For example, drive your car up Douglas Street at 80KPH and see what happens ... that thing that happens, the fine and the points on your license? ... that same kind of thinking needs to apply city wide, and to everybody.

I guess residents of the COV are ultimately left wondering when exactly, did simply being homeless become a free pass to break a multitude of laws, and break those laws with complete and utter impunity?


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#18743 Nparker

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 10:26 PM

There is no legitimate reason not to enforce existing overnight camping bylaws now. Any "solution" that doesn't start with that is just more of the same SJW nonsense that got us where we are today.
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#18744 Stephen Andrew

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 10:31 PM

Is this 100% accurate Stephen?
I believe it was a Supreme Court of B.C. case that permitted camping in parks, and during the night time only. The Charter may have factored into portions of the decision, but the Charter itself doesn't really guarantee one the right to camp anywhere they like, anytime they want.

Many of these people are mentally ill, and as such there are tools available to oblige them to seek treatment. Granted, those tools are rarely used, and have largely fallen out of social fashion ... but what the majority of residents of the COV are actually saying is that they demand a return to "law and order" style governance.

I think the SJW's have largely taken over the dialog, whereas the actual majority of residents want by-laws enforced, and exactly the same treatment dished out when it comes to breaking laws and by-laws that ... let's say you or I would experience if we were to blatantly break the law.
For example, drive your car up Douglas Street at 80KPH and see what happens ... that thing that happens, the fine and the points on your license? ... that same kind of thinking needs to apply city wide, and to everybody.
I guess residents of the COV are ultimately left wondering when exactly, did simply being homeless become a free pass to break a multitude of laws, and break those laws with complete and utter impunity?

I’m referring only to the comment “they should go back where they came from”. We cannot insist they do that.

As to camping, the city has it within its power to enforce the camping bylaw. They are going to court to blame the court for action to force campers to move.

The City Council created the mess in the park and now doesn’t know how to manage it.

Not sure enforcement is going to solve the issue - can’t even say that’s the right way to deal with it.

But surely there are some other spots for camping that are more suitable ?

A couple came up in the meeting today - the Will to open them up seems to be lacking at this point

Edited by Stephen Andrew, 26 July 2020 - 10:32 PM.


#18745 Spy Black

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 11:01 PM

But surely there are some other spots for camping that are more suitable ?

These folks are drawn to the downtown core like a magnet, and won't set up camp anywhere that getting to the downtown core is either onerous, or impossible. That's why long term camps outside of the COV never sustain ... either because other municipalities actually enforce their by-laws, or the camps themselves peter out as the campers gravitate back downtown.

 

A permanent camp on a few of the many empty acres at Work Point would work, on federal land, on the federal tab, and under the auspices of the Military Police. 

 

It's time these homeless folks were told what was to become of them, as opposed to the current practice of the homeless and their UVIC enablers telling taxpayers what they (the homeless) will require, and when they will require it.


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#18746 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 26 July 2020 - 11:18 PM

there would BE hundreds less homeless if we made them break camp daily.

allowing 24/7 camping has increased homelessness by enabling the practice.

it’s that simple.

why can do few others see this?

COVID 19 was a weak excuse that SJWs jumped in to allow the free for all and now we are all suffering because of it.

Edited by Victoria Watcher, 26 July 2020 - 11:21 PM.

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#18747 kitty surprise

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:09 AM

Under the Charter of Rights and Freedom, we simply cannot force people to go anywhere they do not want to. We cannot insist a camper moves to “where they came from” more than can anyone force me to go back to Ontario where I landed when I came to Canada.
Let’s be constructive.
Yes, the camping bylaw should be enforced. I do not see that happening until the pandemic is over. The votes are not on council. That’s realistic.
Again - the region - the ENTIRE region - needs to step up and help manage the homeless situation. That means Saanich, View Royal, Oak Bay and so on.
Instead those outside Victoria spout the line “That’s where the services are” as though it it a free pass to have COV handle the issue for the region. It’s a cop out.


Hi Stephen, if the homeless keep arriving here (because all the services are here), isn't there a risk the optics will drive away tourism over time? I thought tourism was still a big deal to our economy, and drives those important taxes we need in order to pay for all these services for the homeless?

Without 'forcing' anyone to move anywhere, what would happen if we simply provided more services/better services in another, less tourism dependent community? There are other ways to encourage changes in behaviour correct?

Thanks!

#18748 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:14 AM

nobody has to force anyone to move anywhere.

 

just end the damn freebies and enabling.

 

end 24/7 camping.  end tourist and rv and cars/vans and other camping in the park and dallas road.  


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 27 July 2020 - 06:16 AM.

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#18749 Stephen Andrew

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:41 AM

Hi Stephen, if the homeless keep arriving here (because all the services are here), isn't there a risk the optics will drive away tourism over time? I thought tourism was still a big deal to our economy, and drives those important taxes we need in order to pay for all these services for the homeless?

Without 'forcing' anyone to move anywhere, what would happen if we simply provided more services/better services in another, less tourism dependent community? There are other ways to encourage changes in behaviour correct?

Thanks!


I too share the fear that tourism will suffer. We see some impact already - smaller accommodations tell me that they had cancellations directly from guests seeing media reports and online reviews on trip advisor-style sites that describe issues in the city.

It’s tough enough for the properties to compete without the added hurdle of the fallout from hotel properties that are now supported housing.

The courts were clear on the tents in parks - as long as there are no shelter beds, camping is allowed.

Victoria did not work with all the other municipalities when it decided not to enforce its camping bylaw. What did it “think” would happen when it lifted its bylaw and adjacent municipalities didn’t?

So here we are, a municipality forced to live with decisions from a council that lives outside Victoria and one that clearly has no interest in listening to or engaging the residents of this city.

It pains me to no end.

How many people here voted, or would be honest enough to say if they voted, for those non-resident councillors?

If I were on council I would have voted against the position of allowing campers to set up permanently. However, I would have worked to find alternatives. We still need to do that.

The Charter should not be used as a tool to grant overreaching rights. It is meant to protect us. Sometimes the ill effect of working through what is means is we get situations we don’t like.

Though some here are unhappy with thenTown Hall, others - such as AJ - provided reasonable, achievable alternatives that we should advance. For me, that’s a step in the right direction.

I share your concerns. We need a way out.
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#18750 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:54 AM

The courts were clear on the tents in parks - as long as there are no shelter beds, camping is allowed.

 

 

except:

 

1.  that camping does not have to be 24/7.  that's very clear.  it's just night.

 

2.  the city can reasonably exclude some/many parks as they used to do.

 

3.  the administration of the shelters have made it impossible for anyone to know if shelters are actually full.  they have willfully opted out of the bc211 system.  


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 27 July 2020 - 06:55 AM.

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#18751 Stephen Andrew

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 06:55 AM

My time and responses....

Hi all, as you see I do like to engage, consider your comments and respond. But, I’m getting swamped from all sides so I want to let you know that I have to limit my time here.

I will take a look every night and respond then - not as timely as I prefer, but it’s necessary for work-life-poltics balance.

If you need me I am at info@stephenandrew.ca

Thanks,

S
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#18752 spanky123

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:48 AM

except:

 

1.  that camping does not have to be 24/7.  that's very clear.  it's just night.

 

2.  the city can reasonably exclude some/many parks as they used to do.

 

3.  the administration of the shelters have made it impossible for anyone to know if shelters are actually full.  they have willfully opted out of the bc211 system.  

 

These are fairly easy issues to address if council had any will to do so.

 

1. If shelters refuse to provide availability counts, then the first time in a rolling 30 day period they are warned, the second time they have funding withdrawn for the quarter, third time for a year. If you want to really be hard ass then you make it known that if you lose funding then it also means that any company that employs a director with not receive any City contracts while funding is withdrawn.

2. If UVIC wants to allow its departments to run political campaigns rather than attempt to provide a marketable education then the City should withdraw all support for recruiting efforts. 

3. If the 'coalition' wants to take taxpayer money to run a homeless survey and then refuses to release the results because they don't like them, then the Mayor should write to the Federal department who funded them and make a complaint and recommend that they ask for their money back.

4. To prevent community groups from taking taxpayer money under the auspices of community grant programs and then redirecting those funds to political activities, then the City should be auditing the groups to ensure that the work proposed was actually done. If not then the group will be barred from future funding and the companies that employ its directors barred from City contracts until the funds are repaid.

 

Once the free taxpayer money is removed then folks with be much more 'reasonable' in their dealings and we can assess how many people are actually homeless, the use of homeless facilities and what gaps need to be addressed.


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#18753 spanky123

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:50 AM

I too share the fear that tourism will suffer. We see some impact already - smaller accommodations tell me that they had cancellations directly from guests seeing media reports and online reviews on trip advisor-style sites that describe issues in the city.

 

As I pointed out last year, Victoria was the only major tourist town in Canada to see a tourism decline. We were down 10% while everyone else was up. Right now Victoria hotels are struggling with 20% occupancy while up Island they are booming. Tourism is already suffering and won't get better along this current path.


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#18754 spanky123

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 07:56 AM

Just my opinion, and not really based on data, but I don't think it is a question of swaying borderline TV voters to change their mind. I think it is about inspiring a bunch of people who haven't been participating in local elections to show up and vote.

 

Agreed. TV voters are not changing their minds.

 

People forget that the Mayor has 12 full-time PR staff, a chief of strategy and access to the organization of the Green and NDP parties. TV has an entire department at UVIC and the other half of Green/NDP machine. As Stephen saw, these groups were organized ahead of time and fully prepared for yesterday's town hall as I predicted. You can't do anything ad hoc and expect the outcome to be what you want.

 

To my earlier point it is likely why Adam Stirling isn't in a rush to get Helps on his show. If it happens she will be well prepared, the phone board will be stacked with her supporters, and Adam will be playing defense the entire time.



#18755 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:43 AM

Homeless advocacy groups are taking steps to provide ongoing support for Sooke’s homeless population.

 

Multiple agencies, including the Sooke Shelter Society, Sooke Region Communities Health Network, AVI Health, and Community Services, as well as Island Health, have found a new location providing 17 shelter spaces for those in the community experiencing homelessness.

 

They will move into the new location in the former Speed Source Fitness building at the end of July.

 

https://www.vicnews....ess-population/

 

The group is receiving mentoring from the Sooke Region Communities Health Network at the new shelter location, so it can better serve the community and take on an operation like this on their own.

 

The Sooke Shelter Society is volunteer operated, and Thompson would like to see some paid positions available, as many volunteers work full-time hours.

 

 

of course they do.  grow the poverty business!


Edited by Victoria Watcher, 27 July 2020 - 08:45 AM.


#18756 Nparker

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:47 AM

I can see no reason to engage with people who treat a public park like this.  :mad:

bhp destruction.jpg


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#18757 Mike K.

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:49 AM

Breaking:

Horgan, via Richard Zussman: “On Beacon Hill park homelessness, Horgan says he wants to see leadership at the city of Victoria level. Says there is a law campers must fold up tent. He thinks campers should have to do this and disagrees with Mayor Helps and council on this.”
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#18758 Nparker

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:53 AM

 

Horgan says he wants to see leadership at the city of Victoria level

I've been waiting for that for nearly 6 years now. I don't expect it will be coming any time soon.


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#18759 RFS

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 08:54 AM

Maybe as a fun retirement side project horgan can run for mayor of Victoria
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#18760 spanky123

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Posted 27 July 2020 - 09:33 AM

Breaking:

Horgan, via Richard Zussman: “On Beacon Hill park homelessness, Horgan says he wants to see leadership at the city of Victoria level. Says there is a law campers must fold up tent. He thinks campers should have to do this and disagrees with Mayor Helps and council on this.”

 

Accept following the law isn't the intent. Horgan has demonstrated that given enough crime and destruction he will do as Mayor Helps tells him (ie buy more motels and land). Mayor helps asked for more money again last week. Horgan has brought this on himself.



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