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Victoria homelessness issues


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#16401 DustMagnet

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:12 AM

none . but it’s a way of stopping the behaviour.

 

There's no point, and it's going to stop the behaviour?  How does it stop the behaviour?  In order to have leverage over someone that person has to have something to lose.



#16402 tjv

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:14 AM

 

https://www.cbc.ca/n...u-100-1.5145364

 

Penticton bylaw makes sitting on downtown sidewalks a $100 offence
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While I'm not disagreeing with the bylaw, how to they propose to actually get them to pay

 

I can see the homeless person responding as they receive the ticket "and what is the fine for littering?" as they crumple and throw the ticket away



#16403 Mike K.

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 06:26 AM

Repeat offenders who refuse to abide by bylaws and who accrue multiple infractions end up before a judge who decides whether a jail sentence, a significant fine, or both, are warranted.

The system has teeth if a jurisdiction is willing to use them.
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#16404 tjv

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:56 AM

^uhhh, I really really doubt that jail is an option, but if you have some case law I would be interested in reading that

 

Even if it was true

 

a) jail sentence - you don't think the homeless haven't been in jail before, they probably look at it like its a warm bed to sleep in with free hot meals

 

b) significant fine, aka you might find the paperwork on the corridor on the floor outside the courtroom.  What are they going to do seize a portion of their welfare cheque or seize some assets aka their shopping cart?



#16405 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:59 AM

most homeless change their behaviour if you ask / tell them to. solidifies that.

#16406 Nparker

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:00 AM

most homeless change their behaviour if you ask / tell them to...

Chrissy Brett notwithstanding.



#16407 Mike K.

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:01 AM

Just call your lawyer and have a chat with him about the repercussions related to defying bylaws.

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#16408 sdwright.vic

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:25 PM

There's no point, and it's going to stop the behaviour? How does it stop the behaviour? In order to have leverage over someone that person has to have something to lose.


Well they have their freedom to lose. Regardless of if they are on the street or in jail, the cost is most likely similar.
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#16409 tjv

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:51 PM

Just call your lawyer and have a chat with him about the repercussions related to defying bylaws.

I am not calling him, but I will use parking tickets as a prime example which are bylaw infractions.  Municipalities have publicly stated they are powerless to collect millions owed.  

 

https://globalnews.c...-parking-fines/

 

So you have nothing to back up your statement then?  Where is the "teeth" in the above example?  By your statement they would be getting more fines and facing jail time



#16410 Mike K.

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 04:12 PM

Bylaw officers do not issue parking tickets, and tickets are minor bylaw infractions. But for serious infractions the end result is up to a judge if a municipality takes someone to court.

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#16411 tjv

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:02 PM

We are talking about someone getting a bylaw infraction for sitting on the sidewalk.  That is a major or minor infraction?  I would say its minor and is similar in nature to a parking infraction

 

Do you have anything to back up your statement that someone sitting on the sidewalk and gets multiple tickets could end up in jail or getting a severe fine for not paying?  Its a simple yes or no



#16412 Mike K.

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:11 PM

Ms. Cooper, the Pivot lawyer, said that Penticton’s bylaw regime sets out a series of escalating fines, including fines for late payment and repeat offences.

“Ultimately, these fines leave a person liable to be brought before the Provincial Court where they face further fines and even jail,” she said. “We know that unpaid fines such as these can also have collateral consequences in terms of credit ratings and access to government services.”

- https://www.theglobe...criticized-for/

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#16413 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:16 PM

“We know that unpaid fines such as these can also have collateral consequences in terms of credit ratings and access to government services.”

 

 

don't sit on sidewalks in penticton then.


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#16414 sdwright.vic

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:20 PM

So you have nothing to back up your statement then? Where is the "teeth" in the above example? By your statement they would be getting more fines and facing jail time


Municipalities can impound cars, then enforce that all fines have to be paid to get the car back.
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#16415 tjv

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:49 AM

Interesting, but the bigger question is has a judge ever sent someone to jail for ultimately sitting on a sidewalk, or a similar offense, anywhere in Canada before.  I see there are threats of a constitutional challenge already being investigated.

 

Anyway, I guess we will find out if someone goes to jail in Penticton this summer



#16416 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:12 AM

a judge would probably first give a no-go into downtown order. that will suffice.
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#16417 Greg

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:17 AM

Interesting, but the bigger question is has a judge ever sent someone to jail for ultimately sitting on a sidewalk, or a similar offense, anywhere in Canada before.  I see there are threats of a constitutional challenge already being investigated.

 

Anyway, I guess we will find out if someone goes to jail in Penticton this summer

 

I think there are very few people who are sent to jail for parking violations. But we still issue tickets for illegal parking. And that is enough to stop many (but not all) people from parking illegally. I imagine if we entirely stopped issuing parking tickets, the number of people who park illegally would rise dramatically. 

 

It seems reasonable to assume the same with other bylaws. If bylaws are enforced, even if the enforcement is not 100% effective and lacks the ability to severely (and unreasonably) punish minor violations, it will still stop many (but not all) people from breaking the bylaw. And, as is readily observable in downtown Victoria, if you intentionally stop enforcing bylaws, the number of people who break those bylaws rises dramatically.

 

An organized society has rules, and enforces those rules. The enforcement does not have to be draconian, or perfect. Most people will comply with rules that are enforced. With absolutely no enforcement however, a rule effectively ceases to be seen as a rule and few people feel compelled to comply.


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#16418 Victoria Watcher

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:19 AM

look at the smoking bylaw. almost perfect compliance with little ticket-writing necessary.

#16419 DustMagnet

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:38 AM

Well they have their freedom to lose. Regardless of if they are on the street or in jail, the cost is most likely similar.

 

That's assuming we're going to fill up our jails with homeless people who can't or won't pay bylaw infraction fines.  Homeless folks get a lot of slack when it comes to law enforcement - does it really seem likely to you that the tipping point is that they don't pay a fine?

 

I'm not talking theoretical, I mean what do they practically have to lose?  Gonna take their bike, or shopping card in lieu?

 

There's a lot of commentary here about all the Bad Things that can happen to you if you don't pay your fines, but these things are leverage against the average citizen, not the downtrodden and certainly not the elite.


Edited by DustMagnet, 24 May 2019 - 09:42 AM.


#16420 lanforod

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:08 AM

look at the smoking bylaw. almost perfect compliance with little ticket-writing necessary.

 

Hah, people smoke everywhere still. Police could ticket daily for this in various squares and anywhere in downtown. You think there is no one smoking with-in 7 meters of doorways, windows or air intakes or in Bastion, Centennial squares etc.?



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