25959 replies to this topic

[sdwright.vic]

There's no point, and it's going to stop the behaviour? How does it stop the behaviour? In order to have leverage over someone that person has to have something to lose.

Well they have their freedom to lose. Regardless of if they are on the street or in jail, the cost is most likely similar.

[tjv]

Just call your lawyer and have a chat with him about the repercussions related to defying bylaws.

I am not calling him, but I will use parking tickets as a prime example which are bylaw infractions.  Municipalities have publicly stated they are powerless to collect millions owed.  

 

https://globalnews.c...-parking-fines/

 

So you have nothing to back up your statement then?  Where is the "teeth" in the above example?  By your statement they would be getting more fines and facing jail time

[Mike K.]

Bylaw officers do not issue parking tickets, and tickets are minor bylaw infractions. But for serious infractions the end result is up to a judge if a municipality takes someone to court.

[tjv]

We are talking about someone getting a bylaw infraction for sitting on the sidewalk.  That is a major or minor infraction?  I would say its minor and is similar in nature to a parking infraction

 

Do you have anything to back up your statement that someone sitting on the sidewalk and gets multiple tickets could end up in jail or getting a severe fine for not paying?  Its a simple yes or no

[Mike K.]

Ms. Cooper, the Pivot lawyer, said that Penticton’s bylaw regime sets out a series of escalating fines, including fines for late payment and repeat offences.

“Ultimately, these fines leave a person liable to be brought before the Provincial Court where they face further fines and even jail,” she said. “We know that unpaid fines such as these can also have collateral consequences in terms of credit ratings and access to government services.”

- https://www.theglobe...criticized-for/

[Victoria Watcher]

“We know that unpaid fines such as these can also have collateral consequences in terms of credit ratings and access to government services.”

 

 

don't sit on sidewalks in penticton then.

[sdwright.vic]

So you have nothing to back up your statement then? Where is the "teeth" in the above example? By your statement they would be getting more fines and facing jail time

Municipalities can impound cars, then enforce that all fines have to be paid to get the car back.

[tjv]

- https://www.theglobe...criticized-for/

Interesting, but the bigger question is has a judge ever sent someone to jail for ultimately sitting on a sidewalk, or a similar offense, anywhere in Canada before.  I see there are threats of a constitutional challenge already being investigated.

 

Anyway, I guess we will find out if someone goes to jail in Penticton this summer

[Victoria Watcher]

a judge would probably first give a no-go into downtown order. that will suffice.

[Greg]

Interesting, but the bigger question is has a judge ever sent someone to jail for ultimately sitting on a sidewalk, or a similar offense, anywhere in Canada before.  I see there are threats of a constitutional challenge already being investigated.

 

Anyway, I guess we will find out if someone goes to jail in Penticton this summer

 

I think there are very few people who are sent to jail for parking violations. But we still issue tickets for illegal parking. And that is enough to stop many (but not all) people from parking illegally. I imagine if we entirely stopped issuing parking tickets, the number of people who park illegally would rise dramatically. 

 

It seems reasonable to assume the same with other bylaws. If bylaws are enforced, even if the enforcement is not 100% effective and lacks the ability to severely (and unreasonably) punish minor violations, it will still stop many (but not all) people from breaking the bylaw. And, as is readily observable in downtown Victoria, if you intentionally stop enforcing bylaws, the number of people who break those bylaws rises dramatically.

 

An organized society has rules, and enforces those rules. The enforcement does not have to be draconian, or perfect. Most people will comply with rules that are enforced. With absolutely no enforcement however, a rule effectively ceases to be seen as a rule and few people feel compelled to comply.

[Victoria Watcher]

look at the smoking bylaw. almost perfect compliance with little ticket-writing necessary.

[DustMagnet]

Well they have their freedom to lose. Regardless of if they are on the street or in jail, the cost is most likely similar.

 

That's assuming we're going to fill up our jails with homeless people who can't or won't pay bylaw infraction fines.  Homeless folks get a lot of slack when it comes to law enforcement - does it really seem likely to you that the tipping point is that they don't pay a fine?

 

I'm not talking theoretical, I mean what do they practically have to lose?  Gonna take their bike, or shopping card in lieu?

 

There's a lot of commentary here about all the Bad Things that can happen to you if you don't pay your fines, but these things are leverage against the average citizen, not the downtrodden and certainly not the elite.

Edited by DustMagnet, 24 May 2019 - 09:42 AM.

[lanforod]

look at the smoking bylaw. almost perfect compliance with little ticket-writing necessary.

 

Hah, people smoke everywhere still. Police could ticket daily for this in various squares and anywhere in downtown. You think there is no one smoking with-in 7 meters of doorways, windows or air intakes or in Bastion, Centennial squares etc.?

[DustMagnet]

^ Victoria Watcher may have forgotten the sarcastic font....

[Victoria Watcher]

i meant indoors.

[DustMagnet]

Oh, so homeless people aren't smoking in stores, bars, restaurants, planes, etc.

 

Indoor smoking was handled differently - it's not just about the smoker, but it comes down on the heads of the indoor property managers if they allow it, and management does have the right to refuse service.  I don't think the city is going to refuse sidewalk service.

 

So if there was a bylaw against long-term camping in parks...  well we know that management doesn't just kick people out of parks.

Edited by DustMagnet, 24 May 2019 - 01:39 PM.

[tjv]

I think there are very few people who are sent to jail for parking violations. But we still issue tickets for illegal parking. And that is enough to stop many (but not all) people from parking illegally. I imagine if we entirely stopped issuing parking tickets, the number of people who park illegally would rise dramatically. 

 

It seems reasonable to assume the same with other bylaws. If bylaws are enforced, even if the enforcement is not 100% effective and lacks the ability to severely (and unreasonably) punish minor violations, it will still stop many (but not all) people from breaking the bylaw. And, as is readily observable in downtown Victoria, if you intentionally stop enforcing bylaws, the number of people who break those bylaws rises dramatically.

 

An organized society has rules, and enforces those rules. The enforcement does not have to be draconian, or perfect. Most people will comply with rules that are enforced. With absolutely no enforcement however, a rule effectively ceases to be seen as a rule and few people feel compelled to comply.

I am not disagreeing at all what you are saying, nor am I disagreeing with this sidewalk law, but we are talking about trying to enforce laws against people who think there are no laws.  Tent city anyone?

 

look at the smoking bylaw. almost perfect compliance with little ticket-writing necessary.

I remember when the bylaws were introduced by the CRD in the 90s.  Back then I smoked and many places I frequented simply told CRD bylaw inspectors to take a hike, some even lit a smoke right in front of them.  Only when WorksafeBC came up with their rules did everyone start to abide.

[Victoria Watcher]

I am not disagreeing at all what you are saying, nor am I disagreeing with this sidewalk law, but we are talking about trying to enforce laws against people who think there are no laws.  Tent city anyone?

 

any place that refused tent cities did not get them or cleared them out.  

[pennymurphy2000]

https://www.timescol...site-1.23836038

 

Captain Hypocrite strikes again. 

[Awaiting Juno]

That's assuming we're going to fill up our jails with homeless people who can't or won't pay bylaw infraction fines.  Homeless folks get a lot of slack when it comes to law enforcement - does it really seem likely to you that the tipping point is that they don't pay a fine?

 

I'm not talking theoretical, I mean what do they practically have to lose?  Gonna take their bike, or shopping card in lieu?

 

There's a lot of commentary here about all the Bad Things that can happen to you if you don't pay your fines, but these things are leverage against the average citizen, not the downtrodden and certainly not the elite.

 

What if as a result of violating the bylaw, you were transported to outside the area where the bylaw is in force?  Being forced to lose "their post" in a busy area of town is costly, as they then would have to move back to it and lose time and potentially lose the space to some other person.  No fines, no taking away of property, merely an inconvenience of time - which is likely the only resource many of these people may have.