2247 replies to this topic

[Ms. B. Havin]

^ I fully agree with Baro and others on this. The current status quo is hurting us -- just looking at the thread G-man started about Vancouver getting all that funding for a new BC Place roof, $50m for a new art gallery, etc. etc. etc., with Victoria getting nothing... Connect the dots. Victoria isn't recognized as a city, in part because of the ridiculous politics of 13 separate municipalities. This is hurting us economically, culturally, politically. I agree that we don't need to include North Saanich and Sooke, but for pete's sake, what's the problem with amalgamating the core (Victoria, Esquimalt, Oak Bay, S.Saanich), and also creating a Western & a Peninsula grouping?

[Caramia]

I suspect the fact that Gordon Campbell got hung and beaten in effigy on the Parliament building lawn might have something to do with the frosty relationship between the capital city and the premiere too. Victoria has always voted left of Vancouver, I am sure he knows this isn't his constituency. These "oversights" seem fairly deliberate.

[Phil McAvity]

^ I fully agree with Baro and others on this. The current status quo is hurting us -- just looking at the thread G-man started about Vancouver getting all that funding for a new BC Place roof, $50m for a new art gallery, etc. etc. etc., with Victoria getting nothing... Connect the dots. Victoria isn't recognized as a city, in part because of the ridiculous politics of 13 separate municipalities. This is hurting us economically, culturally, politically. I agree that we don't need to include North Saanich and Sooke, but for pete's sake, what's the problem with amalgamating the core (Victoria, Esquimalt, Oak Bay, S.Saanich), and also creating a Western & a Peninsula grouping?

There are many reasons why the city of Victoria should be Victoria, Esquimalt, Oak Bay and south Saanich, but I also understand why the provincial Liberals are throwing so much money into Vancouver. Victoria isn't hosting the Winter Olympics. I think even if Victoria did amalgamate the way we agreed upon (which would make the city of Victoria about 180,000 people instead of 80,000 people), we would still be seeing jackshit from the province for the next two years. Starting in 2011 we might get a little sumpin sumpin though.

[Nparker]

Starting in 2011 we might get a little sumpin sumpin though.

Only if 2011 were an election year (which it is not) and only if the Campbell governement thought it needed votes from the capital region to secure another 4 years, which is extremely doubtful.

Also, if the Winter Olympics were the only influencing factor in monies spent in the lower mainland (and not simply rewarding those who elected liberal members) how come Kelowna has just opened a new $145 million bridge, while Victoria has seen practically nothing in provincial infrastructure funding in the past 7 years? As long as Victoria votes "against" the prevailing government it will get shafted when it comes to funding. Plain and simple.

By the way I now have designations for my new "3 municipality model" for the capital region:
1) Core
2) Snor (Saanich NORth)
3) West Shore

Perhaps someone with a more creative mind than I, can come up with proper names, but for now this will be how I refer to these more logical groupings.

[Mike K.]

Agreed. Local representation is on overkill in Victoria.

Oak Bay and Esquimalt DO NOT need their own elected council. To even suggest that the needs of residents in Oak Bay or Esquimalt will not be met by amalgamating civic departments and police/fire forces has more to do with insecurity towards change than anything else.

With respect to the tax issue, the reason why taxes increase is largely the result of poor amalgamation practices. The one large government begins throwing money at noisy complaints by individuals who feel disrupted by the changes and after a while even if amalgamation took place there are committees and departments created to represent the once tiny enclaves. In effect amalgamation is virtually done away with through compartmentalized specialty departments that are created to "represent" the "unique" desires of neighbourhoods.

The other tax issue is an increase in fees for communities that must now help share the burden of expensive districts. This is a net benefit to the greater city, but it's seen as a failure of amalgamation whereas it ought to be seen as a positive. The more residents that help pay the real cost of running their region the better.

[Nparker]

The more residents that help pay the real cost of running their region the better.

And this gets to the heart of the matter why amalgamation MUST happen, but also why there will be huge opposition to it. Opposition which the current power structure will be more than happy to support.

[Bernard]

To anyone that argues against algamation, I would ask the following: Why does Esquimalt get to be a municipality and Gordon Head and Fairfield do not?

[Nparker]

Give it time. The capital region is inclined to create more municipalities rather than reduce any. Can you say Highlands? Better living through more government seems to be the modis operandi of the area.

[yodsaker]

Agreed. Local representation is on overkill in Victoria.

Oak Bay and Esquimalt DO NOT need their own elected council. To even suggest that the needs of residents in Oak Bay or Esquimalt will not be met by amalgamating civic departments and police/fire forces has more to do with insecurity towards change than anything else....

Mike, I appreciate you knowing what's best and doing the heavy thinking for us here in Oak Bay, especially all the way from Vic West.
A lot of people here like that we get one councillor for about 1500 votes while Vic residents get one rep for a whole lot more. Your vote is diluted so you had people like Bob Cross being mayor while not actually living in Victoria.
Another thing we like is that OB's government is geared to residents' needs and priorities and not those of the business community. When we go to Municipal Hall we don't have to take a number or get put on hold; the burned-out streetlight gets fixed the day we tell them about it.
But thanks anyway for taking the time to let us know what we need.

[Caramia]

Yes, and all your social problems can be shipped downtown, so your council doesn't need to worry about all those residents who didn't make the cut. Which gives them more time to change street lamps. If Oak Bay was more responsible for their share of the problems then amalgamation wouldn't be such a hot topic. In the next election, do you have any candidates who support bringing social housing to Oak Bay or in any way take responsibility?

[aastra]

Another thing we like is that OB's government is geared to residents' needs and priorities and not those of the business community.

So if a resident goes into business does that make him/her a second-class citizen or something?

Residents, businesses...what really is the difference? You can't have one without the other.

[Nparker]

Let the amalgamation debate bloodshed begin!

[yodsaker]

So if a resident goes into business does that make him/her a second-class citizen or something?
Not at all.

Residents, businesses...what really is the difference? You can't have one without the other.

I agree business and residents must work/live together.
Resident-owned businesses that are part of the community are a good thing; they have as much stake in a healthy community as any other residents. BUT, many businesses in Victoria are absentee or corporate owned and may not have residents' concerns top of mind when exercising corporate clout.

If Oak Bay was more responsible for their share of the problems...
Caramia, which social problems are you referring to that we are "shipping downtown"?
Homeless people? We pay a fair chunk of tax money into the CRD.
Drunken louts? Maybe downtown bar owners who are making plenty of money could exercise a bit more control and recognize when people have had enough to drink.

With regard to social housing, OB is a built-out community with maybe 2 or 3 vacant lots.
There are three significant open spaces:
Two private golf clubs who pay healthy taxes and about half of the UVic campus. UVic gives a grant in lieu of taxes for land that would yield a whole lot more revenue if developed in conventional ways. None of those three entities is going to give up or sell any land for any purpose, social housing or otherwise.

Let's remember OB is an almost exclusively residential tax base, we get little of the billion-dollar downtown tourist pie. We do get noisy buses spewing exhaust on residential streets so tourists can gawk.

[VicHockeyFan]

I agree business and residents must work/live together.
Resident-owned businesses that are part of the community are a good thing; they have as much stake in a healthy community as any other residents. BUT, many businesses in Victoria are absentee or corporate owned and may not have residents' concerns top of mind when exercising corporate clout.

If Oak Bay was more responsible for their share of the problems...
Caramia, which social problems are you referring to that we are "shipping downtown"?
Homeless people? We pay a fair chunk of tax money into the CRD.
Drunken louts? Maybe downtown bar owners who are making plenty of money could exercise a bit more control and recognize when people have had enough to drink.

With regard to social housing, OB is a built-out community with maybe 2 or 3 vacant lots.
There are three significant open spaces:
Two private golf clubs who pay healthy taxes and about half of the UVic campus. UVic gives a grant in lieu of taxes for land that would yield a whole lot more revenue if developed in conventional ways. None of those three entities is going to give up or sell any land for any purpose, social housing or otherwise.

Let's remember OB is an almost exclusively residential tax base, we get little of the billion-dollar downtown tourist pie. We do get noisy buses spewing exhaust on residential streets so tourists can gawk.

Victorias largest private-sector employer (by number of employees) is Eastern-Canada owned. Did they become unconcerned about citizens when they changed ownership?

And I can assure you that "downtown bar owners" aren't making as much money as you think they are. However, one Oak Bay bar owner made enough money on his little bar there that he was able to open two more multi-millon dollar ones downtown from his profits.

In Victoria, we eliminate parks to erect social housing. Windsor Park is plenty big enough for a 150-bed facility in one corner. Also, you could easily build a little safe-injection site on that extra lawn in front of Oak Bay City Hall.

[LJ]

You could easily build a little safe-injection site on that extra lawn in front of Oak Bay City Hall.

And yet you wonder why the amalgamation issue gets no traction!!

[davek]

Yes, and all your social problems can be shipped downtown...

I don't think Oak Bay is doing any shipping. Downtown provides services and amenities to the troubled that the other municipalities don't, so the troubled naturally migrate to and concentrate in Victoria.

[Nparker]

All the more reason that the cost of these ammenties should be shared in a combined municipality, since more than just Victoria benefits from their existence. Otherwise Victoria will have to start shipping its "problems" to the other municipalities. We can look at the Alberta welfare system of the 1990s as a model; pay for one-way tickets, or in this case, cab rides.

[davek]

[FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=3][COLOR=navy]All the more reason that the cost of these ammenties should be shared in a combined municipality, since more than just Victoria benefits from their existence.

No one in Oak Bay or Esquimalt asked Victoria to take on their social welfare problems. If downtown doesn't want the trouble or the expense of the less fortunate or irresponsible, it should quit enticing them. It's ridiculous for Victoria to voluntarily shoulder the responsibilities of other municipalities and then argue that that entitles them to rule over those other municipalities.

[yodsaker]

Victorias largest private-sector employer (by number of employees) is Eastern-Canada owned. Did they become unconcerned about citizens when they changed ownership?

My point was that their business comes first, that's why they are in business. I doubt residents' concerns will ever be the priority come decision time.

However, one Oak Bay bar owner made enough money on his little bar there that he was able to open two more multi-millon dollar ones downtown from his profits.

Really? From his OB profits?
The owner had (and still has) a large and highly successful pub in Whistler. He had it long before he opened up in OB. I suspect his Irish Times pub downtown pays for itself quite nicely.
Talk to him, he's a guy who knows his business.

[Mike K.]

Mike, I appreciate you knowing what's best and doing the heavy thinking for us here in Oak Bay, especially all the way from Vic West.

You're making it sound like I live in Kelowna or something.

Another thing we like is that OB's government is geared to residents' needs and priorities and not those of the business community.

Is that why every Oak Bay resident relies on other municipalities to fuel up their vehicle?