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Latenight nuisance bylaw


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#21 Icebergalley

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 11:29 AM

I think the City is after any late-night eatery or business and not just these two. They were targeted for the article, however.


Do you think that Mac's or 7:11 or Tim Horton's (24 hour) will stand up to being shut down during good marketing times.. But, then again, Macs tried to have a mix of take out in their store.. I don't see that there now.

#22 Icebergalley

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 11:32 AM

I've witnessed the mayhem on Douglas St. It goes from the Mac's on Yates down to Johnson near the Pizza place and across to 7-11. Good luck trying to get a cab from there.

I'll let you in a secret if you are down there at closing time. Go down the block to the Brickyard, short line up and better Pizza and when you walk out the door there is a cab to flag down instantly that's coming back downtown via Yates St.



So, your take is that people are waiting for transportation home?.. it's hard to get, they eat while they wait on Wharf St. Should the lack of taxis's be addresses as a contributer to late night issues?

#23 Icebergalley

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 11:40 AM

I think the City is after any late-night eatery or business and not just these two. They were targeted for the article, however.



I would suspect that a prudent administration would have to create by-laws that apply across the juristiction..

Washrooms have been focused on... I've been surprised how few are needed even in new properties... I noticed that when Suze was operating that there were just one or two...

Do the bars close their washrooms prior to closing so that the patrons have to go on the street when they leave?

#24 Galvanized

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:09 PM

^^I've had trouble getting a cab on Douglas a couple of times so imagine other people do too.
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#25 G-Man

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 02:20 PM

People are not waiting for a cab home. They are drunk and when you are drunk for awhile you get hungry it is one of our body's mechanisms for trying to get sober again. These businesses are actually providing a much needed service to the city. Instead of thousands of drunk and hungry people making their way home, we have just drunk people making their way home. Cut off the food and I guarantee you will see more public urination and more fighting. You may see less garbage but that is just poor parenting and not the fault of the business.

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#26 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 03:01 PM

Did you guys know that in order for bars to stay open until 4am on New Years Eve, they are required to provide some type of free food to their patrons? Strange rule, but I guess that goes along with what G says. Even bars that have no food service have to provide food (bring in pizzas, or have something catered etc). I'm not sure if everyone complys with this rule.
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#27 aastra

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:24 PM

When someone says selling a pita is profiting off human misery I think perhaps we could use a slight perspective re-evaluation.


Maybe somebody should make a human rights complaint against the hotel for not taking proper measures to soundproof their rooms against street noise.

#28 aastra

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:27 PM

They guy says they've been complaining about the noise for ten years... Were they hoping downtown Victoria would just up and move eventually? I guess by now they've finally realized the city isn't a temporary phenomenon?

#29 Icebergalley

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 04:47 PM

I know there has been conflicting views about the late night issue in the Downtown for as long as I've been here.. If I recall correctly, the same hotel was tageting the BOOMBOOM Room a # of years back... late night traffic going all around it.. Wonder how they resolved their differences?

And, how have the bars kept out of the media in this current thrust...?

I still don't know how the City will be able to agree to extend the hours of Earls and Jelly Fish..

#30 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 27 May 2007 - 06:02 PM

From what Galvanized describes ("I've witnessed the mayhem on Douglas St. It goes from the Mac's on Yates down to Johnson near the Pizza place and across to 7-11."), it sounds a little bit like something one could expect in the UK. I still don't see why individual businesses should be targetted for reprisals, though.

By "expect in the UK," I'm thinking of their ASBO laws (stands for "Anti Social Behaviour Orders," see [url=http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/antisocialbehaviour/antisocialbehaviour55.htm:02a38]here[/url:02a38] and [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-social_behaviour_order:02a38]here[/url:02a38].

From the first link (above):

Anti-social behaviour is given a wide meaning by the legislation – to paraphrase the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, it is behaviour that causes or is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more people who are not in the same household as the perpetrator.


ASBO tries to target "quality of life" crimes / issues.

The only problem is that ASBOs haven't been that effective in a culture where being a yobbo is "cool" 'cause it shows how anti-establishment you are. The ASBOs are actually kind of creepy -- not really "1984," more like Kafka, maybe. (Which perhaps is what makes them different from the US model, which is harder/ harsher?)

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Dalrymple:02a38]Theodore Dalrymple[/url:02a38] seems to think that anti-smoking laws, political correctness, and the imperative to go forth and enjoy yourself (get drunk, get loud, make a mess) are creating a culture of corporate fascism, where it ain't the hard jack-boot in the face (as described by Orwell, say), but more the professional classes of therapists who will (as per Kafka) control your life. See his interesting review of Frank Furedi's book, Therapy Culture, [url=http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1023034/posts:02a38]here[/url:02a38]. Dalrymple of course worked for decades as a prison psychiatrist and saw plenty of deranged behaviour, both at work and in his neighbourhood. He has made a career of writing about it. See, for example, his 1999 article, [url=http://www.newstatesman.com/199907260022:02a38]They dance; I take the dog for a walk[/url:02a38], where he compares "southern" and "northern" ways of having fun. We northerners force it, which is why it goes all wrong:

Fleshly pleasure does not come easily to northerners: they have to work hard to achieve it. Anyone who has seen a German **rnographic film (widely available on televisions in hotels throughout the world) will know what I mean. Here sex seems more a duty, or even an engineering problem, than a sensual pleasure. (...)

Anyone who observes young Britons having a good time cannot help but hear the same false note. Their abandoned pursuit of pleasure is not carefree, but anxious. One Saturday night recently I went to Chester for a concert and watched the revelry in the streets. They were not the young of the underclass, but people with money to spend. It seemed that none of them could laugh without shrieking or speak without yelling: it was as if they were trying, by outward signs of grace such as vomiting and falling over, to convince each other that they were having a marvellous time. There was a definite strain in the air.

The grossness of their behaviour was also obvious and deliberate, a reaction to what would once have counted as decorum. They swigged beer from bottles, dropped litter within a few feet of litter bins, staggered about with complete disregard for other pedestrians and made the ancient streets echo with the sound of their raucous, though unconvincing, laughter. Since they had an inalienable right to seek pleasure, and since it is universally agreed that restraint is the enemy of all pleasure, it followed that the less restrained they were, the more pleasure they were having.

Pleasure taken in this spirit, however, is almost indistinguishable from duty, though duty that serves no good or useful purpose. This is hedonism as hard work; and it is not surprising that such hedonism is often accompanied by puritanical impulses that make themselves felt in other directions: for example, with regard to smoking or in the phenomenon of political correctness.


In a more recent essay (2006, in City Journal), [url=http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_2_oh_to_be.html:02a38]It's This Bad[/url:02a38], he chronicles the UK's revolving door justice system and its seeming inability to differentiate between the serious and the trivial. A young drunk guy who walks up to a horse-mounted policeman and says, "Excuse me, do you realize your horse is gay?" gets two squad cars and an arrest for making "a homophobic remark," while other drunk young people who beat someone into a coma (and it's not their first offence) more or less walk away.

So, in that sort of soft-fascism culture, it's more important to control people's thinking ("bad boy, that's sooo homophobic!") than their actions, according to Dalrymple's jaundiced view of Britain's present justice system. He also rails against anti-smoking laws, since smoking isn't illegal (he references the move to make smoking illegal in prisons, for prisoners; he writes: "At bottom, the proposal looks like the arbitrary bullying of a defenseless population in a fit of Pecksniffian moral enthusiasm. It is to deprive that population of a small privilege long accepted by custom and usage. And, of course, the moral enthusiasts of the government will not bear the practical cost of enforcing the ban; the prison wardens will."). To him, it's all thought-control, a Kafka-esque kind of internal prison, with not a good result.

We had plenty of previous discussions on this board re. how these drunks & rowdies & urinators aren't the poor and homeless and generally oppressed, but the well-off folk from the suburbs. So is Dalrymple right -- that they are taking "pleasure as duty," have to drink to excess, pee into doorways, and throw garbage about ...because that's what "free" and "liberated" and "fun-loving" party animals do? And the reaction is as puritanical as their "fun," namely shutting down businesses? So we still don't know how to get people to behave with some decorum and plain old good manners? That's pretty bad...
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#31 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 11:03 AM

Feisty letter in the T-C today, from 73-year old Roy Crichton:

[url=http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/letters/story.html?id=2e889a34-e2cb-4991-a03d-38183f26b6e3:53a2e]After 73 years, no more patios[/url:53a2e]
Times Colonist
Published: Friday, June 29, 2007

Being 73 years old, I wonder how I managed to survive this long. First the Germans bombed me in Northern Ireland when I was about eight years old. In 1945, we came to Canada, where I rode my bike on my paper route without a helmet.

My mom cooked with lard. I wouldn't eat vegetables. I got my driver's licence at 15. I gassed up the car while smoking. I did not have seat-belts or airbags.

I drove on country roads on moonlit nights with my girl without lights on. I ate juicy cheesburgers, chips and cream pie. I took up drinking vodka in 1956 while in the RCAF.

I spent 12 years in England during the mad-cow disease period and ate roast beef once a week. I gave up restaurants when the smoking ban was introduced.

I'll be giving up patios on July 1. I still drink vodka. I have found that when people are afraid of death, they are also afraid of life.

Therefore they will beg for protection from all danger, while giving up freedom of action. In hindsight, I have lived in a happy period and would not exchange it for one moment for the planned puritanical future.

Roy Crichton,

Victoria.

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2007


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#32 Caramia

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 11:06 PM

Great reading Ms B.
Nowadays most people die of a sort of creeping common sense, and discover when it is too late that the only things one never regrets are one's mistakes.
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#33 Rorschach

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 08:15 AM

"It's this Bad" is right on the money. I used to live in London and I can see that Canada is going down the same path. Our legal system and the delinquency of our kids today portends our future quite clearly.

#34 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 08:57 PM

So there's this editorial in today's T-C that made something obvious to me, which hadn't been obvious (to me) before. Cops here can't write you a ticket for breaking the law? What's that all about? Is this true? They can arrest me, but they can't write out a simple ticket? That's just plain crazy...! I mean, heck, knowing that, I think I'll become a scofflaw, too! After all, I won't get arrested either, because the cops also know that the courts can't deal with me since they're overburdened. So it's free-for-all time, folks...

I bolded the bits about ticketing, and how it could be tied to driver's licence renewals to enforce payment/ make the ticket have consequences.

Editorial: Quick fixes can halt rowdy drunks
Give police more tools to fight boozy brawlers
Times Colonist
Published: Thursday, September 27, 2007

It's disappointing that Victoria is still fretting about fighting, vandalism and rowdiness when thousands of people pour out of downtown bars late at night.

By now, we would have expected action, not just talk. The situation is dangerous, costly and a serious problem for downtown residents.

Mayor Alan Lowe says allowing people to remain in bars -- without alcohol -- until 3 a.m. might mean reduced crowds on the street and less trouble at closing time. Then try it, now.

But much more than that should have been done by now.

First, police should have been given better tools for dealing with drunkenness, fighting, urinating in public and other stupid misbehaviour. Many of those acts are covered by the Criminal Code. But laying a charge is cumbersome and prosecution slow and costly.

But council could pass bylaws allowing police to issue tickets on the spot -- with substantial fines -- for those actions.

Other cities, including Vancouver, have successfully used tickets to discourage drunken acts. If non-payment becomes an issue, the fines could be linked to driver's licence renewals. (Victoria has a fighting bylaw, but few other tools for police. Even fighting carries only a $100 fine.)


Second, increase enforcement of over-serving and other problems -- again with new bylaws or much higher fines. Bars aren't supposed to serve people to the point of drunkenness. If they are, then the consequences need to be serious. The city can also push the province for better enforcement.

Third, give the city's bar owners notice: Their customers are emerging drunk and causing the problems, so they should have to bear of the policing and cleanup costs. Whether through sharply increased business licence costs or some other measures, the city should shift the costs of policing on to the businesses at least partially responsible for the problem. That would create a meaningful incentive for them to invest in solutions.

Finally, the city should pressure the province for a much more effective alcohol-education program in schools, starting at the middle-school level. (Almost 40 per cent of youths who say they have tried alcohol report they began experimenting before they were 13.)

Alcohol is both our society's most popular drug and its most destructive. While we work hard at warning youth about the risks of meth and other drugs -- rightly -- we are failing to educate too many of them about alcohol.

We know people will continue to use alcohol, because they value its mood-altering qualities. We need to teach children about harm reduction and the difference between the mild, sociable intoxication and serious drunkenness.

Enough with the talking as the problems grow worse. It's time for some action.

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2007
http://www.canada.co... ... e37a7764a8


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#35 G-Man

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 09:04 PM

What if you don't have driver's license? I mean i have quite a few friends that don't. It would have to be something that is equal for everyone.

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#36 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 10:32 PM

First, police should have been given better tools for dealing with drunkenness, fighting, urinating in public and other stupid misbehaviour


You can arrest people for all of this. Even if you lay no charges, you can keep folks locked up for 5, 6 maybe even 8 or more hours. That works as good as a fine.
<p><span style="font-size:12px;"><em><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;">"I don’t need a middle person in my pizza slice transaction" <strong>- zoomer, April 17, 2018</strong></span></em></span>

#37 Ms. B. Havin

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 07:24 AM

What if you don't have driver's license? I mean i have quite a few friends that don't. It would have to be something that is equal for everyone.

Why? Equal for everyone?, what mythical state are we talking about? Besides, it's already supposed to be equal: you're not allowed to piss in public or be drunk and disorderly in public: that's an equal rule for everyone, yet some people scoff at it. As for the driver's licence thing: it's just one way to put some effectiveness in it, and if not everyone has one, big deal. They'll still have to produce some sort of ID, and chances are it'll have an address at which they can be reached, or if they're milquetoasts, then they have to give their parents' addresses. The cops might even catch one or two kids with fake IDs this way, who knows? Younger patrons will have something on them since they'll have been asked for ID at the bar. (Note: I'm talking about bar patrons, not homeless people, ok?)

As for VHF's quibble: locking them up wastes time and costs the system far more money. The police don't bother most of the time. A ticket is instant, and even if some people were to "fall through the cracks" and get away with not paying their fine, eventually it'll catch up to them if they repeat some more. So maybe the effect would be that they'll never do it again. Plus, it would be a great deterrent for others. Maybe the very few who don't have a valid ID can be kept overnight.
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#38 G-Man

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 08:19 AM

Sorry I think you misinterpreted my response. I just meant that that whatever punishment needs to be effective and equal. If it is linked to your DL and you don't have one then those you get off free.

Perhaps they could carry around ankle bracelets in the back of the police cars and if you are caught you have to where one for x amount of days. Only way to get them off is at the station so you would be island bound and look stupid for a few days.

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#39 aastra

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 10:34 AM

Bars aren't supposed to serve people to the point of drunkenness.


Right. I mean, come on.

#40 aastra

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 10:43 AM

...police should have been given better tools for dealing with drunkenness, fighting, urinating in public and other stupid misbehaviour. Many of those acts are covered by the Criminal Code. But laying a charge is cumbersome and prosecution slow and costly.


The problem is, if you don't process the troublemakers then you have no idea who's actually making trouble. For all you know it could be just the same few dozen people, week after week. If brawling in public is actually something we're concerned about then stop the brawls and process the brawlers. If you catch the same guys brawling again then lay some serious charges against them. What's so difficult?

This is why letting things slide just doesn't work. The whole world isn't getting into drunken brawls and urinating in public. It's just a small number of people. Or is it? Maybe when it comes to rowdy bar scenes, Victoria is suddenly a huge, unmanageable metropolis? The city shrinks and/or expands dramatically depending on the issue.

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