James Bay

They're giving the JB Thrifties a makeover, inside and out.




The Villages pizza has moved next the the Starbucks and Thifties has taken over the Village site and pushed the space out a bit for a flower section.
Things have been moved around quiet a bit inside.

Too bad the Thrifty's isn't closer to the sidewalk.

You mean demolish it, rebuild to the sidewalk and put the parking in the back? I don't think JB is ready for the concept of supermarket underground parking. Anyway, they couldn't demolish it. Being Thrifty store #1 it's likely heritage...

Actually that Thrifty's probably has the oldest U/G parking of any grocery store in the city.

Being Thrifty store #1 it's likely heritage...

I guess that proves the old adage, "One supermarket chain's heritage site is another supermarket chain's dumpy former location."

Taking the discussion that started in the Crystalview thread, re. JBNA complaints about traffic generated by cruise ship business...

LRT as envisioned by Island Transformations would indeed be the most sensible (dare I say "visionary"?) solution both for JB's woes with regard to transit from and to Ogden Point in the summer as well as with regard to serving the local population and businesses in JB and downtown year round.

When Irwin Henderson, Gerry Howell-Jones, Jeremy Watney, and Darrell Wick gave their presentation to the Saanich Planning and Transportation Advisory Committeee on June 30, 2006, they proposed a detailed plan ...which unfortunately seems to have gone nowhere. See the minutes (PDF) for June 30/06. Note that their plan was for Town & Country to become a hub on which all points converge, and from which there'd be direct routes downtown. (So take a look at the minutes and at the plan for the transit thread, too). ITO also gave a presentation to Victoria City Council, but I couldn't find the link to those minutes just now.

From the Saanich minutes, here are some excerpts of Island Transformations Org's expectations of their plan:

A streetcar system from Fisherman’s Wharf to Town and Country will benefit the urban population, commuters and tourists.
(...)
In response to questions and comments from the Committee, ITO members stated:

- Over 75% of users of an LRT system have access to a car – but prefer to use LRT.

- The system would be implemented in two phases: from Ogden Point to Mayfair Mall and from Mayfair to Town and Country – a total of just under 10 km of track.

- Based on the Portland model cost estimates are between $80 and $120 million.

- The intent is to start small and build out from the core.

- Financing and political alignments are complicated – all three levels of government need to participate, including gas tax funding.

- Saanich is about to embark on a total redevelopment of the Town and Country shopping centre so this is an ideal opportunity to consider LRT.

- Park and Ride areas are a feature of some systems but they haven’t been addressed in this scenario; it is obvious these would have to be considered.

- Money currently spent on parking space costs downtown could be redirected (estimated at $11,000 per space).

- The system is fully accessible to people using wheelchairs, scooters or baby strollers.

Saanich's councilor Vic Derman responded, among other things pointing out the following:

- Currently in the region we have 13 local jurisdictions presiding over their own transportation networks, BC Transit looking after the public transit system and the Ministry of Transportation the highway system.

- There is no single authority from a regional transportation perspective.

- The Travel Choices study was a “bare bones” document and deficient in many areas – for example, Traffic Demand Management or LRT systems were not examined.

- The CRD Select Committee, comprised of five CRD directors, has a broad mandate and was established to look at transportation issues from a regional perspective and the implications of the Travel Choices study document

Ok, so then we get Saanich's response to the Transportation Initiative (CRD) from Geoff Young (also city of Victoria councilor), and here's what Derman points out:

In conjunction with the Regional Transportation Choices Study, the CRD hired a consultant to review various planning exercises taking place throughout the region.

- Each municipality, BC Transit and the Ministry of Transportation were contacted.

- As expected, most municipalities described projects within their own borders, Transit highlighted their bus programmes, and the Ministry mentioned interchanges and highways.

- Councillor Geoff Young came up with the concept of looking at the issues as a joint effort, perhaps consider the possibility of streetcars or LRT along Douglas Street rather than a dedicated bus way, for example.

- It was suggested that a working group be formed with members from PTAC and the CRD’s committee to review the issues and eventually make recommendations to Council.

You get the impression that everyone knows that this system of working in separate silos is going to kill innovation, yet no one has figured out how to storm them, make them flat, make them co-operate instead. So instead, the issues get passed to yet another committee for more study.

Anyway, there's a danger this'll derail the JB thread -- maybe take extended discussion of transit up on its appropriate thread -- but my point in posting this was to point out that we do have people in the community (and on this forum) who have thought carefully and across domains about what would work. The best solution for James Bay is a LRT loop from Ogden Point to Fisherman's Wharf to downtown, especially as a first step toward a complete downtown loop of free transit (it has done wonders for business in Portland, paying for itself), with eventual connections to shopping centres/ hubs further north.

And for what it's worth, I still think the BRT idea up Douglas isn't a good idea.

Perhaps if the BRT started at Ogden Point in the Cruise Months?

I wish that the plan presented for LRT was going to happen but there just is not 100 million+ to spend on infrastucture for Victoria.

I mean I think we can realistically say that Douglas Street Business owners would be opposed to LRT down douglas as well, so the only difference in the BRT vs LRT is the kind of vehicle. There would still be stations in the middle of the road and there would still be limitations on left hand turns. They just prefer car traffic.

Also I am sure James Bay would be against LRT in their neighbourhood as it would mean increased potential for development.

Wow, very interesting stuff Ms B. - one of those situations where the answer is in our face, but the political will to make it happen? Not so much.

I was at one of ITO's presentations to council, and what they had to say makes so much sense. Even the construction method is minimally disruptive (as far as this sort of stuff goes) -- perhaps someone here has details? It involved working in block-long stretches, I believe. It's something they did in Portland.

The $100m is for the whole 10km thing (and yeah, we could argue whether 18 months later that's still realistic). With 3 levels of government, plus some creative P3-ing, plus some nice incentives for developers, I'm not convinced that it couldn't be brought to a level that municipalities could afford. But they'd have to overcome the silos, that's for sure. And present the plan vigorously to the right people in the other levels. Build political support for it, bring the right allies onside, get popular support, that sort of thing.

I don't think JB would -- or could? -- object to LRT from Ogden Point to Fisherman's Wharf to downtown. It would be a huge boon for them, it would leave their neighbourhood streets untouched, and their village centre would still be theirs. I think the folks who would squawk the loudest would be the business owners of tour bus operations, since they'd lose out. But hey, you know what? I don't believe that highway-sized tour buses or emissions-spewing old warhorse double-decker buses retired from London or elsewhere have a place in a dense urban environment, I really don't. Those things are stinkers, and the former should stay on the highways if they must travel, while the latter should have been sent to the scrap heap where they belong. Recycle 'em into something useful (and cleaner), or else force them to put new engines in.

I agree completely about the buses, they are disgusting.

Unfortunately what is as clear as glass to us is a lead plate to a local politician.

I do question the routing to Fisherman's Wharf though. If were to route LRT it would be Ogden Point to Menzies north on Menzies to Superior then along Superior to Douglas and North from there.

It would be weird to build LRT and not have it touch the commercial centre in JB also it would make it a hard sell to say that it wasn't just for the tourists.

I do question the routing to Fisherman's Wharf though. If were to route LRT it would be Ogden Point to Menzies north on Menzies to Superior then along Superior to Douglas and North from there.

It would be weird to build LRT and not have it touch the commercial centre in JB also it would make it a hard sell to say that it wasn't just for the tourists.

That's true, but on the other hand you could argue that it makes sense given that JB's commercial centre is already maximized pretty well and wouldn't deal well with the disruption that putting LRT in would bring (I'm thinking of the 5 corners area -- Menzies/ Simcoe/ Toronto), which means that JB doesn't need/ want the additional development that LRT brings with it (residential, commercial). The streets there are already so tight...

And: if Ogden Point were developed in some way as a destination, coupled with Fisherman's Wharf (already on the cusp of that) it could trigger good things for that currently bereft-looking patch where St. Lawrence St and Ontario / Erie/ Kingston come together, if LRT ran along there.

I think that could actually bring people into JB to Fisherman's Wharf and to Ogden Point. It would be like taking a seaside jaunt for quite a few Victorians who otherwise live "inland," not that there's much of that around here! :-)

I just think the idea has so much going for it, it's sad to see it going nowhere...

On the discussion of LRT in James Bay, I would link you would see something similar to the Portland Streetcar, which has been very successful. I do think residents and business owners would support a modern streetcar system within their community. Unlike LRT, this modern streetcar (or Tram) system would run on the same streets as traffic, and in my proposal could actually eliminate the need for the many tour buses and perhaps transit vehicles.

Here is a map for phase one.



These are based on the original streetcar lines with some additions and changes.

Check it out:

There are no apparent plans to advise our visitors that James Bay is not a theme park created for their enjoyment.

Also note the info re: widening Belleville Street. Is that really necessary? And how much sense does it make in light of the recently implemented traffic calming measures around town? (for example, on Fort Street and Yates Street)

http://www.jamesbayb...ebstoryjbna.htm

The DRC has not had access to the transportation study which the developer is required to produce for this site. James Bay residents recognize the corner of Douglas and Belleville Streets as a nightmare during tourist season. The intersection handles vehicular traffic funneled in from Blanshard, Coho & Ogden Point generated tourist traffic, tourists and local pedestrians (in and out of crosswalks), horse drawn carriages and buses. As one of the primary access/egress points to James Bay, Belleville Street and the impact of increased traffic is of great community concern.

Give me a break.
I lived in JB for three years and I've never came across a nightmare scenario when it came to traffic.

And yet somebody wants the street widened. Why? How does it make any sense at all to widen Belleville but pinch Yates?

Sometimes I think these people invent issues just to justify their existence.

That newsletter mentions VibrantVictoria as a "development aware" resource.

Sometimes I think these people invent issues just to justify their existence.

Well, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for a moment. If indeed the traffic to & from James Bay (Ogden Point included) is so heavy and so noisy and so polluting and so potentially hazardous, isn't it about time that we considered a quieter, safer, less polluting means of moving people around the city? Aren't they really arguing for urban light rail?

If they were they should spell it out.

I do have to say that I meant justify their existence as an association, not individuals. It sounded harsher than I was intending.