3519 replies to this topic

[Holden West]

If the appearance gets "streamlined" any further to reduce costs then it could end up being a total disaster.

How ironic if the actual bridge more closely resembled one of the simple example concepts used to illustrate a bascule bridge posted near the beginning of this thread.

I like your emotional examples, too.

[Sue Woods]

Their proverbial nah nah nah poo poo could have been energy used to add something to the discussion before the vote.

Its been said enough but one more time for the road - lots of people "added to the discussion before the vote." City Council (sans Geoff Young) had their minds set and there appeared to be no consideration of any ideas that differed from theirs.

I think they missed a good opportunity to show respect for opposing views. Which is really the job of sitting politicians.

[aastra]

Speaking of looking back in this thread:

Landmark means the right structure in the right place, said Coun. Pam Madoff. “It can be the most simple and graceful and elegant structure imaginable. It’s not the mass of it that makes it iconic.”

Is it any wonder that post-war Victoria has been all about "building down"? Physically significant and impressive historic structures have been replaced with much shorter/smaller/blander structures in almost every instance, and Madoff's comment is a good summation of the mindset that's responsible for it.

Question: Does the Empress Hotel's sheer size contribute to its iconic status?

[North Shore]

Leaving aside heritage issues, from the perspective of cost alone, the new bridge does not have any data to indicate how you would have cost certainty.

As it stands, we do not have a final price on the new bridge. We have authorized borrowing for the new bridge that is not likely to be enough to pay for the construction which means the City will have to stop the project part way through unless they get approval for more money from the public through another referendum.

Indeed! Now that everyone knows how much we've got available to spend, I wonder what the quotes will be to build the new bridge?

[Bingo]

How ironic if the actual bridge more closely resembled one of the simple example concepts used to illustrate a bascule bridge posted near the beginning of this thread.

I don't think the design as it is shown today will be what is built.
The pedestrian path shown on the south side of the bridge is not what was promised as being user friendly to strollers and wheelchairs.
On the east side of the bridge there are stairs and a fairly steep ramp from the bridge that takes you back up to street level.

[Linear Thinker]

Did anyone hear Mike Lai on CFAX this morning?
(I can't stream media here at work.)

[Holden West]

^No, I didn't either. Time to invest in a wireless real-time portable media player.

[jonny]

[quote name='Bernard']Leaving aside heritage issues, from the perspective of cost alone, the new bridge does not have any data to indicate how you would have cost certainty.
[quote]

And this is no different than any other project out there. There are always unknowns. Projects are risky. There is a pretty standard contingency of 15% (about $9M) in the $77M replacement figure.

I think it's pretty silly at this point to conclude that this project will most definitely come in over budget.

As an aside, looking through the replacement and refurbish estimates again, I find it interesting that MMM Group used a 15% contingency for the replacement option and a 25% contingency for the refurbishment option. Not really "apples to apples".

[Nparker]

[quote name='jonny'][quote name='Bernard']...As an aside, looking through the replacement and refurbish estimates again, I find it interesting that MMM Group used a 15% contingency for the replacement option and a 25% contingency for the refurbishment option. Not really "apples to apples".[/quote]

I am not sure if anyone has ever refurbished or renovated an old building, but there are ALWAYS costly surprises to be found behind old walls, floors etc. One almost always has to expect to go over budget in this sort of project. I would expect refurbishing an old bridge (which admitedly has less than a stellar maintenance record of late) would also have its fair share of surprise expenses. I don't think factoring in a larger contingency into the estimate is an unfair comparison.

[Bernard]

Yes there cost surprises in renovations, but you have more opportunities to scale the project as you go along.

There were clear lower cost alternatives identified for refurbishment identified in the engineering reports.

In any case we are not going forward with refurbishment as the people have spoken.

The issue and problem now is how the costs of the new bridge will be contained. At the moment there is no mechanism in place ensure on budget construction.

[Bob Fugger]

[quote name='Nparker'][quote name='jonny']

I am not sure if anyone has ever refurbished or renovated an old building, but there are ALWAYS costly surprises to be found behind old walls, floors etc. One almost always has to expect to go over budget in this sort of project. I would expect refurbishing an old bridge (which admitedly has less than a stellar maintenance record of late) would also have its fair share of surprise expenses. I don't think factoring in a larger contingency into the estimate is an unfair comparison.[/quote]

You know, I never liked the home renovation analogy put forth by the City. New construction is subject to cost overruns, they're just a bit different. Usually what ends up happening is that you start choosing more expensive building materials along the way (e.g., the difference between a utilitarian faucet and a titanium faucet with a retractable hose is $50...well, it's only $50 and this new build is worth thousands, so what's $50!?) - so by the time you get to the landscaping, you end up having to chintz out because you don't have enough cash left.

[Bernard]

Comparing a large public capital project to a house renovation, or a car repair, or building a new house, is not a reasonable comparison because the scale of the projects changes everything. Scale matters as it seems to be have the biggest impact on the systemic problems on cost over runs.

In the construction of housing, there is no clear systemic problem with cost over runs. A well instructed contractor working from details plans tends to come pretty damn close to budget.

In large public capital projects there seems to be a problem because there is no one that has a personal responsibility for meeting the budget. All the matters in public capital projects is breaking ground, it is very rare for a public capital project to stop once it is underway.

Can you imagine a situation in which the new Johnson Street Bridge would be abandoned part way through construction because it was too expensive?The odds of that happening is almost zero. This bridge will be built even if it goes 100% over budget because on one will be held accountable for going over budget and no one has the guts to leave the harbour with a partially completed bridge.

[jonny]

[quote name='Nparker'][quote name='jonny']

I am not sure if anyone has ever refurbished or renovated an old building, but there are ALWAYS costly surprises to be found behind old walls, floors etc. One almost always has to expect to go over budget in this sort of project. I would expect refurbishing an old bridge (which admitedly has less than a stellar maintenance record of late) would also have its fair share of surprise expenses. I don't think factoring in a larger contingency into the estimate is an unfair comparison.[/quote]

There may be costly surprises, but on the otherhand there will likely be cost saving surprises as well. I also don't like the old building analogy. Old buildings aren't made of steel and they don't have complicated machinery. Sometimes the surprises go the other way.

For example, the JSB contractor could start taking apart the shoreside abutments at either side of the bridge and find that they're in really good shape and the pilings don't require replacement. Or they blast the steel to find that the 90 year old steel is actually in really good shape. Or they could go the complete other way. There are always unknowns and surprises, but they do go both ways.

They need to put this bridge replacement out for RFP here pretty soon, and I hope they put it out as a fixed price contract. There are some awfully hungry marine and industrial contractors out there. I think they could have got some really good tenders with the refurbishment option.

[tedward]

For example, the JSB contractor could start taking apart the shoreside abutments at either side of the bridge and find that they're in really good shape and the pilings don't require replacement.

I'm confused and not an engineer but since the plan is to build a totally new bridge beside the current bridge, then demolish the old bridge I don't see how you could avoid replacing the pilings and abutments?

[Bingo]

I'm confused and not an engineer but since the plan is to build a totally new bridge beside the current bridge, then demolish the old bridge I don't see how you could avoid replacing the pilings and abutments?

Sounds like jonny was one of the many confused people who voted yes, and have just realised what they voted for.

[jonny]

Sounds like jonny was one of the many confused people who voted yes, and have just realised what they voted for.

Not so Bingo Bango, pay attention. It was merely an example of unexpected cost savings around the refurbishment option, which we were discussing, right?

Confused?

[Bingo]

Not so Bingo Bango, pay attention. It was merely an example of unexpected cost savings around the refurbishment option, which we were discussing, right?

Confused?

Oh! Sorry, I hadn't thought of recycling the steel and pilings from the old bridge, for use with the new bridge.

[Sue Woods]

Oh! Sorry, I hadn't thought of recycling the steel and pilings from the old bridge, for use with the new bridge.

Do you know if there's been any research into completely rebuilding (as opposed to refurbishing) bridge to look like it does now? With new steel, fresh paint, new lighting, widened for an additional taffic lane - it could look pretty classy.

[dirtydeeds]

They need to put this bridge replacement out for RFP here pretty soon, and I hope they put it out as a fixed price contract. There are some awfully hungry marine and industrial contractors out there. I think they could have got some really good tenders with the refurbishment option.

Now that the process will begin I hope we will be using local steel shops to build the new bridge. Between Harjim, Ramseys, and Nicholson Mfg we should be able to keep the work, wages, taxes, and spill over spending in town? I haven't heard anything from local companies with plans on putting in a proposal?

[Bob Fugger]

Now that the process will begin I hope we will be using local steel shops to build the new bridge. Between Harjim, Ramseys, and Nicholson Mfg we should be able to keep the work, wages, taxes, and spill over spending in town? I haven't heard anything from local companies with plans on putting in a proposal?

I wouldn't count on it. Especially since one of the major industries in Nanning (or at least the Beibu Gulf Economic Zone, in which Nanning is located) is steel. But then, Citizen Dean already knew that: