3104 replies to this topic

[UrbanRail]

Why is it a terminal and not just a station for the East, West train from UVIC to Esquimalt?

I think there seems to be some confusion.

The terminal is for the E&N Railway Passenger Services (whether that is commuter or intercity), not for LRT or streetcar. Services from Up Island, ie. Nanaimo, Duncan, Shawnigan Lk, would terminate at this new station in Victoria. LRT would use the Government St/Douglas St/Galloping Goose corridor, while Commuter Rail would use the E&N corridor (which is shared by freight trains as well).


LRT and Commuter ( or heavy rail) are two different animals.

I have noticed that in the media that LRT and commuter rail are being branded as the same thing, and they are not. Is especially true when it comes to quoting costs for construction, since it would be cheaper to upgrade the E&N then build LRT. The total upgrade cost for the E&N (to allow a full blown commuter rail operation) according to Stantec Consulting is $250million from downtown Victoricat to Duncan. LRT costs have been quoted at between $300 to 500 million. Personally I think both should be built, as well as a inner city tram system.

Aaron

[ressen]

Other than saving a few blocks of walking distance I can see no point in spending money to bring a commuter train to Douglas street. Passengers alighting from the commuter train could simply board one of the many free downtown shuttle buses or walk to their destination. The train would back up over the bridge and park on the spur line until the next one or two train cars came by, then travel back out of town moving on to spur lines at intervals, allowing for more incoming trains to go by. In the afternoon the out bound train would take precedence, at least until double tracks are laid. The cars on the commuter rail will only run from Goldstream Meadows park & ride to Victoria and people coming by train from North of the Malahat will have to transfer from the day-liner to the lighter, faster commuter rail cars at the Goldstream station that is located near Humpback road. This system could be implemented now with the acquisition of rail cars , spur lines and real-time train positioning technology. What would the cost be if commuter rail is considered only from Goldstream and not all the way from Duncan?

[UrbanRail]

Actually I disagree, I see a huge advantage in bringing the tracks closer to Douglas St. It is the busiest transit corridor in the region, with about 95% of all routes using it. Plus when a tram/streetcar (eventually LRT) line is built along Government St, you then have 3 major transit corridors intersecting allowing convienent connections for riders.

Several condos are being planned or constructed nearby. For example the old Hudson Bay building. The key to making commuter rail successful is having convienent connections to support it, like bus routes, taxis, and LRT/tram. If we are encouraging people to live/work downtown or commute without using their car, then moving the E&N Tracks closer to the heart of downtown Victoria makes a lot of sense.

The current site is inadequate, in a poor location, terrible pedestrian amenities, and has poor transit connections.

Unfortunately no tunnel will ever be built, nor will any underground station be possible (at least not in my lifetime). The costs would kill the project right away. It makes more sense to keep the tracks on the surface, as you will market rail travel a lot better if the public sees the trains.

As for double tracking, not possible at this time. Most likely several passing sidings would be built at key locations (like stations). As for the costs of commuter rail between Goldstream and Victoria, I dont know, but I will see what I can find out.

You bring up some interesting points. What you are suggesting could work for a starter system.
But making the train stop at Langford and transfering riders to another train to get to Victoria on the same line is not something I would not support. As a commuter, if I was living in Duncan and wanted to get to Downtown Victoria, I would want direct service without having to transfer (or at least very little transfering between modes) Why couldnt you use fast trains all the way from the up-island communities to Victoria?

Aaron

[ressen]

It would be possible to run an express train from Duncan all the way in to Victoria as long as it was compatible with the local rolling stock. The trains coming in from langford would eventually run out to UVIC along Pandora as street cars or tram negating the need for a down town terminus. The majority of people using this train want to get down town in the morning and back out West in the evening, with some people wanting to go further East towards UVIC and Oak Bay. People that need to go north of town would probably come in along the TCH to Town & Country be that by bus, rapid-bus or car.

[G-Man]

I hope they are planning to upgrade the E&N so the train can actually be called an express.

[ressen]

I think it is unfortunate that the CRD is planning a trail adjacent to the E&N tracks, as it will be very difficult to remove once people start using it; to add double tracks .

[UrbanRail]

It would be possible to run an express train from Duncan all the way in to Victoria as long as it was compatible with the local rolling stock. The trains coming in from langford would eventually run out to UVIC along Pandora as street cars or tram negating the need for a down town terminus. The majority of people using this train want to get down town in the morning and back out West in the evening, with some people wanting to go further East towards UVIC and Oak Bay. People that need to go north of town would probably come in along the TCH to Town & Country be that by bus, rapid-bus or car.

Again you bring up some really interesting ideas. As ridership increases, and development gets more dense along the E&N and BRT, LRT corridors, direct rail service from Langford to UVic could be possible down the road.
Its unlikely that BC Transit would be running any rail services, as their focus is bus services. I would suspect that a separate entity (like Translink) be in charge of any expanded rail or transit services.

[Galvanized]

I've split the governance discussion to another thread as it's a good discussion on it's own.


In regards to commuter rail to UVic, I just can't see it happening as it is only in full session from Sept til April. The UVic bus routes are cut heavily when it is not in full session so a train would lose money.

[G-Man]

As UVic grows the summer seesion gets larger. I am sure at some point there will be almost as big a student body during the summer months. Plus if they continue with the enterpirse centres than it will also grow as a year round employment centre too.

[ressen]

By rail to UVIC I also mean Gordon Head in general.

[G-Man]

And with Tuscany Village and many more projects going in I am sure that there will be more people there to ride it.

[van-island]

UrbanRail, I think it's great that you are doing so much work to help improve our transportation system, but if you are submitting portfolios to Stantec and/or the government, I really hope they aren't the hand-drawn papers that you've posted here. MS Paint and looseleaf paper are not a great way to get taken seriously.

Just my opinion, and not intended as an insult. Keep it up!

[Holden West]

As long as we're doleing out positive constructive criticism I might remind the forumers here that Thou Shalt Not Use the Font "Comic Sans" in a Business Document.

[UrbanRail]

UrbanRail, I think it's great that you are doing so much work to help improve our transportation system, but if you are submitting portfolios to Stantec and/or the government, I really hope they aren't the hand-drawn papers that you've posted here. MS Paint and looseleaf paper are not a great way to get taken seriously.

Just my opinion, and not intended as an insult. Keep it up!

No insult taken.

Unfortunately I have only some experience in autocad (classes at Camosun last fall). So the hand drawn stuff will have to suffice. Also since all of my drawings are based on aerial photos, its a bit hard to make them very accurate. Is there some way to make my drawings more professional looking (ie elimating the lined paper look)? Would Adobe Paint shop work? At this point I am just getting into computer graphics, so it will take some time to draw well on the computer.

[Icebergalley]

IMO, hand drawn stuff gives the right flavour of many concepts... am idea that has been worked out on the back of an envelope or on a map at a less than detailed scale...

It's only an idea... as soon as one starts to "tart" it up or use autocad etc... it starts to take a degree detail that most times has not been worked out..

[Vic Vega]

I was disappointed the train option wasn't brought up in the Malahat study. I would love to see the current schedule reversed so the train left DT Victoria at 5pm for up-island.

[G-Man]

^ But that would be so rational!

[UrbanRail]

I wouldnt worry about the Malahat Study.
There has been a very negative backlash it seems from the media and local governments and citizens.

The study isnt written in stone and if the current negative response to the study continues, then support will rise and I believe you will see commuter rail way before any highway inprovements are made.

[Galvanized]

On CH news tonight they discussed how the rail corridor people needed money to fix up the track to a decent standard, they said CN and Rail America didn't look after it well enough. They are looking to the Province for help. The Premier was on saying the last time he looked at the business model it was only tourism based and that the Province wouldn't help unless they changed their business model to include local passenger and freight service and if that didn't help with revenue to fix up the track then at that point they might provide some help.

[Holden West]

I was just listening to a story about European high speed trains on German radio ([url=http://www.inthenews.co.uk/money/transport/transport/tgv-careers-into-record-books-$1073569.htm:33570]France's TGV set a new record yesterday--575 kph[/url:33570]) and one guy was saying how Germany's [url=http://www.bahn.de/p/view/international/englisch/trains/trains_ice.shtml:33570]ICE[/url:33570] train slows to a relative crawl between Munich and Nuremberg because of the lousy track conditions.

Although by German standards, "slow" would be the equivilent of the E&N going downhill at full speed (with a tailwind)...