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Canada Day in Victoria.


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#1 sebberry

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:01 PM

The errosion of human rights just keeps accelerating with this one. It's one thing to be drinking on the bus, but it is another to search someone and prohibit them from transporting alcohol in a sealed container on the bus.

Ok, I'll admit - people DO use the bus to transport alcohol downtown for consumption, but is it BC Transit's right or responsibility to search inside rider's bags for drinks which they are in legal possession of?

Is it that incomprehensible that someone might be taking the alcohol to a house party and has no intention of causing a public disturbance?

I mentioned it in the "Internet monitoring" thread that I found it bothersome that 80% of Canadians who responded to the survey were in support of the new internet spy laws, and I find it equally bothersome that the 4 people shown on CHEK news supported the suspicionless searches of bus passengers.

Even if it's just for one night, you can't put aside someone's right to privacy and freedom from warrantless and suspicionless searches.

That's my rant for the day.

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#2 VicDuck

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:03 PM

Many people in some countries fight for human rights while we let the government take ours away. How sad.

#3 sebberry

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:12 PM

Many people in some countries fight for human rights while we let the government take ours away. How sad.


In my experience, whenever someone like myself speaks up about stuff like this, even to my friends, I get told that I am *****ing and complaining and to accept it for the way that it is, because it isn't going to change.



What are they going to do when teenagers start hiding bottles of booze up their shirts? Ask every 18 year old girl boarding the bus with a puffy vest to undress and prove that they don't have anything on them?

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#4 VicDuck

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:30 PM

Well if i were you i'd continue to "***** and Complain" as i do every time i hear BS like this.

#5 mat

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Posted 23 June 2009 - 11:55 PM

Sebbery - I have retitled the thread, and will be incorporating other posts from similar forums. This is an important subject which has been discussed on VV over previous years. You did well to create a new thread - nothing on VV was obviously available.

The debacle over the unwarranted personal searches last year has not made any difference to police policy, in fact they are defying the Human Rights rulings, and private law suits. Obviously, they, and the city, see any potential pay outs for wrongful search and seizure under the law, are economically justifiable.

In a post on VV last year I mentioned being stopped and searched in our car, while heading down to a friends condo in James Bay to view the fireworks. We had 2 bottles of wine, and various groceries for the BBQ. It took 15 minutes, and various phone calls, to prove to the police we were not intending to open the bottles in a public place. An utter violation of Charter rights.

Various media articles have pointed out disruptions and closures of events and festivals around BC due to unruly behaviour - and also noted the July harbour festival last summer with Feist and Sarah McLachlan, which drew 45 000 people, and no police issues.

Jack Knox - Times Colonist.

Ultimately we cannot have our local police and city council accepting payouts for law suits on illegal search and seizure as a cost of 'keeping the peace'

#6 spanky123

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 04:52 AM

You agree to be searched whenever you board an airplane and my understanding is that BC Transit will set the same standard on Canada Day.

People have the choice of riding the bus downtown that day as you have a choice of boarding an aircraft. I don't see the difference.

#7 Pyroteknik

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 06:43 AM

I wonder why are we the only major city in Canada to enact this liquor prohibition on buses? Do we behave worse than other Canadians? Drink more? or are we prudes trying to protect a squeaky clean image of Victoria?

#8 Bob Fugger

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 07:58 AM

You agree to be searched whenever you board an airplane and my understanding is that BC Transit will set the same standard on Canada Day.

People have the choice of riding the bus downtown that day as you have a choice of boarding an aircraft. I don't see the difference.


That's a red herring if I've ever smelled one. The motives related to airplane searches for implements of destruction and BC Transit busting people for carrying something as completely legal as alcohol are totally different. It's that kind of thinking that gives birth to something as heinous as the US PATRIOT Act.

For citizens who choose to celebrate Canada Day by imbibing, at least they are shoing some foresight by not getting anywhere near a driver's seat. But how can one even presuppose that everyone getting on a bus with a CLOSED bottle of alcohol is going downtown to drink? What about the little old lady who needs to take the bus to get herself a bottle of sherry? What about me, if I need to take a bus to a liquor store to get a two-four of Canadian? Are you saying that I cannot legally transport alcohol purchased for private use in my own home? This is a valid argument for private service providers (who retain the right to refuse service), but as a publically-funded service, BC Transit is bound by the BC Human Rights Act and the Charter to not unreasonably deny service.

It doesn't take the Supreme Court of Canada to see how fundamentally wrong it is to not only deny a citizen access to a public service because he/she refuses to consent to an illegal search, but to also refuse access in general for transporting legally purchased alcohol.

#9 Nparker

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 08:02 AM

You are 100% correct Bob. It's a shame people are so quick to give up their civil rights in the name of "civil order" and alleged safety. This is exactly the sort of BS that was fed to the Americans to justify the "Patriot Act" - one of the worst pieces of legislation to become law since Nazi Germany.

#10 groundlevel

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 09:44 AM

hmmm . . . so if a naughty person (me) were to get on the bus -- a publically funded service -- with an unopened bottle of legally purchased alcohol and if confronted while sitting demurely in my seat were to invoke the BC Human Rights Act and the Charter against unwarrented search and seizure . . . ummm could I sue and get big bucks from the municipality and B.C Transit and the police force???

#11 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 09:56 AM

You are 100% correct Bob. It's a shame people are so quick to give up their civil rights in the name of "civil order" and alleged safety. This is exactly the sort of BS that was fed to the Americans to justify the "Patriot Act" - one of the worst pieces of legislation to become law since Nazi Germany.


Ya. I think that inline with this same type of policy, police should be able to search your house whenever they want. Now, you can refuse the search, but if you do, you can't leave your house. Clearly it's your choice. No one is saying you have to agree to the search.

CFAX Newspoll:

Polls

Will a no liquor policy (opened or not) downtown and on BC Transit buses this Canada Day inconvenience you?
Answer Votes %
Yes 28 10%
No 243 90%
Total: 271 100%
To cast your vote, click the '' beside your choice, then click the 'Vote' button.



I trust CFAX just has the story slightly wrong, or those 28 YES votes are from the owners of the 28 places you can legally buy take-away liquor downtown. Would be a slow day for them.

#12 Nparker

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 10:02 AM

I trust CFAX just has the story slightly wrong, or those 28 YES votes are from the owners of the 28 places you can legally buy take-away liquor downtown. Would be a slow day for them.


I think CFAX's poll is asking the wrong question. A more relevant question would be "Do you support the search and seizure of unopened alcohol from riders on public transit."

#13 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 10:05 AM

I think CFAX's poll is asking the wrong question. A more relevant question would be "Do you support the search and seizure of unopened alcohol from riders on public transit."


You are absolutely right.

#14 mat

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 10:59 AM

hmmm . . . so if a naughty person (me) were to get on the bus -- a publically funded service -- with an unopened bottle of legally purchased alcohol and if confronted while sitting demurely in my seat were to invoke the BC Human Rights Act and the Charter against unwarrented search and seizure . . . ummm could I sue and get big bucks from the municipality and B.C Transit and the police force???


People already have - none have gone to court, they were settled before any potential trial. There are some media reports that the BC Human Rights Commission will be keeping a very close watch on how the police handle this upcoming Canada Day and may initiate their own action if there are violations.

#15 sebberry

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:07 AM

I think CFAX's poll is asking the wrong question. A more relevant question would be "Do you support the search and seizure of unopened alcohol from riders on public transit."


Polls are simply one the techniques to get the public who is viewing the results to agree with the laws.

Word them in such a way to obtain a particular result and then everyone who reads it sees that the public as a whole supports this illegal search and seizure.

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#16 VicHockeyFan

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:10 AM

http://www.timescolo...7401/story.html


The same day, some Victoria police officers will begin using "body-worn" video cameras attached to sunglasses or bicycle helmets that can be activated to record incidents during Canada Day celebrations. The miniature cameras, which record sound, are a first for a North American police force, and will be tested here for two months, Victoria police say.

...

Police have also been familiarizing themselves with the mini-cameras for several weeks.

During a two-year pilot project by Plymouth's police force in Britain, the recordings were found to reduce public complaints about police by 14 per cent and increase guilty pleas by 22 per cent. Const. Brendon LeBlanc said officers will inform people they are being recorded, although they're not required to.

Recordings can be deleted only through a desktop system at the police station. The units will be worn by two bike-patrol officers, two beat-patrol officers and two traffic officers, who will use them in conjunction with car-mounted video cameras.

Victoria police will assess whether the cameras, on loan from two manufacturers, reduce the time officers take to file reports.

...

So now I ask the question... will the police delete the recordings at their own discretion, or will they be required to keep them for some time and be open to release upon a court order? What I'm getting at is, can they destroy recordings that make them look bad or acting improperly, but keep the recordings they need to help process crimes by the public?

#17 sebberry

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:15 AM

I sent an email to CFAX's "Suggest a poll question" address:

News poll suggestion:



Question:



Do you support the suspicionless searches of bags and back backs on public transit, keeping in mind that such searches are a violation of the BC Human Rights Act and the Charter against unwarranted search and seizure?



Answers:



Yes, people using publicly funded transit should set aside their rights and open their bags for transit operators and police to inspect at any time;



OR



No, It is wrong to assume that everyone boarding a bus with a bag is intending to do something illegal







Thank you for considering this poll.



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#18 sebberry

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:17 AM

Sebbery - I have retitled the thread, and will be incorporating other posts from similar forums. This is an important subject which has been discussed on VV over previous years. You did well to create a new thread - nothing on VV was obviously available.


Thanks, I was so outraged by hearing this on the news I didn't even think to search before I posted :)


In a post on VV last year I mentioned being stopped and searched in our car, while heading down to a friends condo in James Bay to view the fireworks. We had 2 bottles of wine, and various groceries for the BBQ. It took 15 minutes, and various phone calls, to prove to the police we were not intending to open the bottles in a public place. An utter violation of Charter rights.


That's pretty sad. Did anything come of that afterwards?

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#19 North Shore

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 11:53 AM

Hmmm, I'm not sure where to fall on this...It's only 1 day a year, and due to trouble in the past, so I can see the Police and BC Transit's position ... and, if you do live downtown, why would you choose that one day of the year to transport alcohol on the bus? OTOH, unreasonable searches....:confused:

Mat, we'll have to discuss your event later while we are canoeing...
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?

#20 gumgum

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Posted 24 June 2009 - 12:30 PM

If I took the bus in and wanted booze, I'd just buy my booze when I got downtown. Seems like a no brainer to me.

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