1760 replies to this topic

[Bingo]

With the decision to proceed with the expansion of the Kinder Morgan pipeline there are some concerns about safely bringing additional oil tankers to the Westridge Marine Terminal in Burnaby. 

There are some options to get that oil tanker traffic out of Vancouver Harbour.

The present Tsawwassen Ferry terminal could be moved to the north side of the Roberts Bank Terminal.

This location would also keep the access road to the ferry terminal away from the expansion going on around the community of Tsawwassen.

The present ferry terminal could be converted to wharfage for oil tankers. There would need to be a pipeline from the refinery in Burnaby to the new facility at Tsawwassen.

In the future the area between Roberts Bank and the new Oil & Gas Terminal could be further developed as the need arises.

 

 

Present oil pipeline to Burnaby, with possible expansion to Tsawwassen

 

 

 

[57WestHills]

What the &&@! Is up with gas prices today? 10 cent change around noon.

[Mike K.]

Yup. $1.27 for 87.

Prices are expected to ease next week, though. Apparently a production shortfall at a couple of refineries has pushed up oil futures.

[sebberry]

Thankfully I topped off yesterday. 

 

When will the eco movement realize that protesting refineries and pipelines are just hurting the average Joe?

[LeoVictoria]

Thankfully I topped off yesterday.

When will the eco movement realize that protesting refineries and pipelines are just hurting the average Joe?

Funny. Oil costs half as much as it did a few years back.

[jonny]

Funny. Oil costs half as much as it did a few years back.

Crude costs half as much, but fuel in BC costs maybe 20% less. One major reason fuel costs so much on the coast is the lack of pipelines and refineries.

[LeoVictoria]

Crude costs half as much, but fuel in BC costs maybe 20% less. One major reason fuel costs so much on the coast is the lack of pipelines and refineries.

Not the fault of the protesters. That is profit taking by the oil companies.

[Bingo]

Not the fault of the protesters. That is profit taking by the oil companies.

Doesn't the profit happen at the delivery end of the pipe. Pipe too small profits small.

[rjag]

Crude costs half as much, but fuel in BC costs maybe 20% less. One major reason fuel costs so much on the coast is the lack of pipelines and refineries.

 

don't forget that its priced in $US so add in the exchange rate. 

[Mike K.]

Right, that's been beating us up, for sure.

[jonny]

Not the fault of the protesters. That is profit taking by the oil companies.

Sure it is. There would be more refineries and pipelines if not for all the protesting.

[LeoVictoria]

Sure it is. There would be more refineries and pipelines if not for all the protesting.

 

The pipelines are there to supply the export market.  It has nothing to do with local demand.   

 

And the burnaby refinery was just put up for sale.   They closed several refineries in the 90s.   Nothing to do with protesting.

 

Here's a good article on it:  http://www.huffingto..._n_1539701.html

Not a word about protesters.   

Edited by LeoVictoria, 31 December 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[jonny]

The pipelines are there to supply the export market.  It has nothing to do with local demand.  

 

First off, this is not correct. Refined products are transported via TM. This has been well documented in this thread and others.

 

And the burnaby refinery was just put up for sale.   They closed several refineries in the 90s.   Nothing to do with protesting.

 

Here's a good article on it:  http://www.huffingto..._n_1539701.html

Not a word about protesters.   

 

 

We live in an environment that is very hostile towards the oil and gas industries. This is BC, after all, where energy projects come to die.

 

I was recently in an area of the United States where gas is around $2/gallon. Why are we paying 2-3 times as much for gasoline? It’s not simply “profit taking by the oil companies”. These are the same companies that offer fuel for sale in Alberta and Ontario, where gasoline prices are 20%+ lower than here. A portion of that difference is taxes, but another chunk is supply/demand and a hidden chunk is that we simply have to import fuel from the US because we can’t get enough domestic product to the coast. How silly is it that we have some of the largest oil reserves in the world in a neighbouring province, but we have to import fuel from the US?

 

I have covered this dynamic in detail, in this very thread. Having to import refined products from Washington State is costing us. We have to import because the Burnaby refinery is small and we do not have the infrastructure to ship enough refined products from Alberta. Unless this culture of opposition to energy infrastructure changes, be that in the form of protestors or paid activists, we will continue to pay significantly more than the rest of Canada.

[VicHockeyFan]

... we will continue to pay significantly more than the rest of Canada.

 

Which continues to import from Saudi Arabia.

 

 

Given that eastern Canada imports oil from abroad, it becomes obvious that Canada has a problem. One region of the country produces too much oil, while another imports it from distant and perhaps unreliable jurisdictions. The imbalance is bad news for Canada because locally produced oil is having trouble getting to market due to a lack of pipeline infrastructure, which hurts multiple stakeholders. One solution is Trans Canada’s Energy East pipeline. It would move up to 1.1 million barrels per day of crude from landlocked western regions to eastern Canadian refineries. This would benefit western Canadian producers, eastern refiners, the government – through higher royalties and taxes – and Canada as a whole. Yet the Energy East project is, like any pipeline big enough to make the news, having a lot of trouble getting off the ground.

 

[jonny]

Exactly. Because we can't get our own domestic supply chain in order due to a litany of bureaucratic and activist roadblocks.

[johnk]

IIRC no new refineries have been built in North America for 40+ years. That's a problem. If Alberta had more vision than a mole they would have encouraged/supported a refinery in Fort Mac. Jobs created and no "dilbit" sludge moving through pipelines.
IIRC2, Canadian oil price is blended to reflect Cdn costs and imported costs and arrive at a kind of median price.
A whole lot of oil for eastern Canada is brought in from Venezuela which is relatively close but very dirty high-sulphur oil. My friend's dad worked on those tankers and east end Montreal had several refineries when I was a kid. We always knew when the wind had shifted!

[LeoVictoria]

First off, this is not correct. Refined products are transported via TM. This has been well documented in this thread and others.



We live in an environment that is very hostile towards the oil and gas industries. This is BC, after all, where energy projects come to die.

I was recently in an area of the United States where gas is around $2/gallon. Why are we paying 2-3 times as much for gasoline? It’s not simply “profit taking by the oil companies”. These are the same companies that offer fuel for sale in Alberta and Ontario, where gasoline prices are 20%+ lower than here. A portion of that difference is taxes, but another chunk is supply/demand and a hidden chunk is that we simply have to import fuel from the US because we can’t get enough domestic product to the coast. How silly is it that we have some of the largest oil reserves in the world in a neighbouring province, but we have to import fuel from the US?

I have covered this dynamic in detail, in this very thread. Having to import refined products from Washington State is costing us. We have to import because the Burnaby refinery is small and we do not have the infrastructure to ship enough refined products from Alberta. Unless this culture of opposition to energy infrastructure changes, be that in the form of protestors or paid activists, we will continue to pay significantly more than the rest of Canada.

So you didn't read the article I posted? There used to be plenty of refineries. Many of them shut down. Not because of protesters but because I assume they weren't economic to run. Now we're in a bit of a pickle because of it but again they aren't being built because by the time you've paid for the capital cost gasoline use will be declining again.

[jonny]

IIRC no new refineries have been built in North America for 40+ years.

 

This has been bandied about for years, but it isn't technically true. There are different types of refineries. Several "upgrader" type refineries have been recently constructed in Alberta, for example, but they don't refine bitumen into gasoline, diesel, etc. They upgrade the bitumen into crude, which is easier to handle, and then transported to customers.

 

The last BIG new refinery came online in the 70's. Several smaller refineries have come online more recently, but they are very small or highly specialized (i.e. there's a new one in Houston listed here that refines natural gas condensate into liquid products like LPG). https://www.eia.gov/...q.cfm?id=29&t=6

 

There was also one small refinery built in North Dakota that was built to produce pretty much only diesel. That one's kind of an interesting story.

 

So, it's not technically a true statement, but true enough.

 

We also can't overlook that virtually every refinery has been significantly upgraded over the years to increase capacity, become more efficient, become cleaner, etc. New processes, like cat cracking, have come along too that have been added to many refinery operations as well. 

 

If Alberta had more vision than a mole they would have encouraged/supported a refinery in Fort Mac. Jobs created and no "dilbit" sludge moving through pipelines.
IIRC2, Canadian oil price is blended to reflect Cdn costs and imported costs and arrive at a kind of median price.
A whole lot of oil for eastern Canada is brought in from Venezuela which is relatively close but very dirty high-sulphur oil. My friend's dad worked on those tankers and east end Montreal had several refineries when I was a kid. We always knew when the wind had shifted!

 

It's a shame that they burn corrupt, bloody Saudi and Venezuelan oil in central and eastern Canada. We help make the sheikhs and dictators rich while laughing at our own out of work oilpatch workers.

[jonny]

So you didn't read the article I posted? There used to be plenty of refineries. Many of them shut down. Not because of protesters but because I assume they weren't economic to run. Now we're in a bit of a pickle because of it but again they aren't being built because by the time you've paid for the capital cost gasoline use will be declining again.

 

I know all about why refineries have been shutting down. Overall, across North America, gasoline demand has been pretty flat. Refineries have shut down, but capacity has actually increased, as the article you linked noted.

 

We also have this imbalance where we can't get western Canadian crude to the eastern refineries in the form of pipelines. I'm sure the protestors won't help that situation at all.

 

Anyway, we have an inability to get refined Canadian products to BC in an economic fashion so we have to import from Washington state. I would argue that while we may not need any more refineries in Canada, we could probably use another in BC (in theory). In practice, another refinery will never be built. TM has the potential to help with our supply issue. The protest crowd will certainly help to stop that. We know the profit taking oil companies want the pipeline built.

[LeoVictoria]

I know all about why refineries have been shutting down. Overall, across North America, gasoline demand has been pretty flat. Refineries have shut down, but capacity has actually increased, as the article you linked noted.

 

We also have this imbalance where we can't get western Canadian crude to the eastern refineries in the form of pipelines. I'm sure the protestors won't help that situation at all.

 

Anyway, we have an inability to get refined Canadian products to BC in an economic fashion so we have to import from Washington state. I would argue that while we may not need any more refineries in Canada, we could probably use another in BC (in theory). In practice, another refinery will never be built. TM has the potential to help with our supply issue. The protest crowd will certainly help to stop that. We know the profit taking oil companies want the pipeline built.

 

The protests have all focused on increased tanker traffic.  In other words they're opposed to export.   I bet if the argument for the TM pipeline was "we're going to ship more gasoline over from alberta and stop importing from Washington which means gas will be cheaper for you" there would be a lot fewer protests.   

Edited by LeoVictoria, 04 January 2017 - 08:16 PM.