1454 replies to this topic

[jklymak]

eseedhouse repeatedly states if a car hits a pedestrian, they stand a better chance if that car is travelling at 40kph than 50kph. I won't argue with that, but I am still unclear as to how the increased limit equates to a greater risk of the car hitting the pedestrian in the first place.

Clearly your stopping distance and time is increased if you are going faster. Ergo easier to stop or avoid a pedestrian.

I'm sure your counter argument probably has merit: speed differentials are bad even for pedestrians as they can't judge car distances reliably, and going too slow sometimes leads to distraction and less attentive driving. However, that requires a bit more proof and psychology than the simple physics that says moving things around slowly is safer than moving them around quickly when your control system has a finite response time.

[sebberry]

Clearly your stopping distance and time is increased if you are going faster. Ergo easier to stop or avoid a pedestrian.

Fair point, but what's setting up this conflict in the first place?

Is it a distracted driver blowing a stop sign/light?
Is it a distracted pedestrian looking down at their phone?
Is it a pedestrian in a rush and failing to obey a pedestrian control signal?

[eseedhouse]

I'm sure your counter argument probably has merit: speed differentials are bad even for pedestrians as they can't judge car distances reliably, and going too slow sometimes leads to distraction and less attentive driving. However, that requires a bit more proof and psychology than the simple physics that says moving things around slowly is safer than moving them around quickly when your control system has a finite response time.

While I think your general point is correct, one of the points of lowering speed limits on city streets is to keep general variations in speed down. You would only have to slow by 10 kph for a school zone instead of 20 kph, for example.

[Mike K.]

Well, if I am wearing a tin hat so are, among others, the folks at Time magazine.

Oh come on In the 1960's the world was bracing for moon colonies and hotels on Mars by the year 2000.

Just because a technology is under development and may have merit does not equate it to being adapted to universal use throughout an entire continent.

Self-driven cars are a novelty. They will have their place in certain circumstances but they are about as likely to be navigating the streets of Victoria any time soon as are robots serving us dinner.

[sebberry]

I'd phone in but I'm listening online and I had it paused for a while so the show is now over, but Chris Coleman and Shellie Gudgeon were on talking about this.

To my knowledge these two have no traffic safety or engineering backgrounds. How they managed to get this far with this I have no idea.

[jklymak]

Fair point, but what's setting up this conflict in the first place?

Is it a distracted driver blowing a stop sign/light?
Is it a distracted pedestrian looking down at their phone?
Is it a pedestrian in a rush and failing to obey a pedestrian control signal?

It doesn't matter - in all those situations a car going slower will have a better chance at missing the pedestrian than a car going faster.

If your point is that lots of other things cause pedestrians to get hit than speed, thats certainly true. But that doesn't mean that lowering the speed wouldn't help.

[jklymak]

While I think your general point is correct, one of the points of lowering speed limits on city streets is to keep general variations in speed down. You would only have to slow by 10 kph for a school zone instead of 20 kph, for example.

Slowing down isnt' a problem - I meant speed differentials between individual cars. If you have half the cars going 60 and the rest going 50 thats a lot safer than half going 60 and the rest going 40.

[rjag]

I still stand by my original assertion that they are providing a solution to a non-existent problem. Why stop at 40, lower it to 30 for cars, 20 for trucks and buses with men riding bikes in front of the buses and trucks with air-horns warning all pedestrians to hold their children close and to stay clear as a mechanical horseless carriage is passing

Mike, this would be a great time to invite Mr Coleman or Ms Gudgeon to participate in this conversation so that they could share with us the reasons and the data behind this proposal.

[jonny]

I also think this is a solution to a non-existant problem. Is there a rash of vehicle accidents in this province that is prompting this proposed change, or is this just the pet project of a couple of politicians?

Most collisions are caused by unattentive people or by people doing things they normally wouldn't because they are in a rush. Reducing the speed limit will do nothing to increase the attentiveness of drivers or to promote better habits.

[D.L.]

One reason stated for bringing about this change is that it will bring greater consistency to speed limits. However, if this proposal will only affect residential streets, and streets through commercial areas will remain at 50 km/h, then an inconsistency in speed limits will still remain, and could even be increased.

[eseedhouse]

Slowing down isnt' a problem - I meant speed differentials between individual cars. If you have half the cars going 60 and the rest going 50 thats a lot safer than half going 60 and the rest going 40.

But half the cars going at 40 and half at 30 is even safer.

[sebberry]

Speed limits
146 (1) Subject to this section, a person must not drive or operate a motor vehicle on a highway in a municipality or treaty lands at a greater rate of speed than 50 km/h, and a person must not drive or operate a motor vehicle on a highway outside a municipality at a greater rate of speed than 80 km/h.

I believe this is the part of the motor vehicle act that they want to change.

The 50kph component applies to all roadways within a municipality, residential or otherwise.

What this means is that unless a city or municipality draws up a by-law designating certian segments of roads 50kph zones, all roads including major ones like McKenzie, Blanshard, Shelbourne, Hillside, etc... will have an unposted maximum speed limit of 40kph.

I almost think that the councillors behind this don't realize the reach of their proposal. Every road in BC within a municipality will be impacted by this, and every road where the municipality wishes to continue with a 50kph speed limit will need to have that entered in that city's bylaws and signs posted.

PDF of the CoV Streets and Traffic Bylaw: http://www.victoria....ylaw-09-079.pdf

Scroll to page 67 to see what needs to be in place for every road segment where the municipality wishes to have a speed limit other than the default 50kph.

I can't for the life of me udnerstand why these councillors don't simply push to have roads they feel are dangerous listed under the 30 or 40kph sections of the streets and traffic bylaws.

[sebberry]

But half the cars going at 40 and half at 30 is even safer.

If you slow traffic down so much that any brain dead half wit can drive in his sleep, you're bound to see a significant jump in the number of people who allow themselves to become distracted with phones, music, make-up, etc...

[rjag]

But half the cars going at 40 and half at 30 is even safer.

Again I refer you to this article where the City of Winnipeg just rejected the lower speed limit, they looked at Edmonton and found it to be inconclusive and not worth pursuing

http://www.winnipegf...-185978522.html

Edmonton's pilot project found driver speed was reduced by two to three km/h and did not lead to any statistically significant changes in the total number of collisions or severe collisions.

The report said some drivers will follow the lower speed limit while others will ignore it, disrupting traffic and increasing the potential for collisions between slower and faster drivers.

"Speed limits that are inconsistent with driver expectations breed disrespect and will not be complied with, except with extensive enforcement," the report said. "This places an unnecessary burden on law-enforcement personnel (cost and resources) with limited long-term results."

[Mike K.]

Mike, this would be a great time to invite Mr Coleman or Ms Gudgeon to participate in this conversation so that they could share with us the reasons and the data behind this proposal.

Great idea. I've written Mayor Fortin and council with a request for input.

[D.L.]

"Speed limits that are inconsistent with driver expectations breed disrespect and will not be complied with, except with extensive enforcement," the report said. "This places an unnecessary burden on law-enforcement personnel (cost and resources) with limited long-term results."

+1

[LJ]

Oh come on In the 1960's the world was bracing for moon colonies and hotels on Mars by the year 2000.

Just because a technology is under development and may have merit does not equate it to being adapted to universal use throughout an entire continent.

Self-driven cars are a novelty. They will have their place in certain circumstances but they are about as likely to be navigating the streets of Victoria any time soon as are robots serving us dinner.

And everyone was going to have their personal jet car as well. The latest one was that the Segway was going to revolutionize personal transportation in the city.

[LJ]

I can't for the life of me udnerstand why these councillors don't simply push to have roads they feel are dangerous listed under the 30 or 40kph sections of the streets and traffic bylaws.

Can you say revenue generator?

[phx]

If you slow traffic down so much that any brain dead half wit can drive in his sleep, you're bound to see a significant jump in the number of people who allow themselves to become distracted with phones, music, make-up, etc...

What is the maximum safe speed for bumping into pedestrians? 5 km/h?

[sebberry]

What is the maximum safe speed for bumping into pedestrians? 5 km/h?

Depends if you stop or just keep going after impact