33 replies to this topic

[North Shore]

VHF, you think? Why would you think that people wouldn't value their time, and schedule things for most efficiency? And, given that the bus is going anyway, what's the difference if there's 2 or so extra people on it at any given time?

[VicHockeyFan]

$40/hr for mowing lawns, etc? Really? Show the payscale, please. Nevermind, here it is:http://www.saanich.c...eA2007-2011.pdf Hmm, Accountants at $40/hr, lawn mowers, not so much... I suppose you could cut the lawnmowers down to $15/hr, but I suspect you'd lose out in intangibles like training costs, corporate memory, and pride in the job...

Wrong, look at the fully burdened wage, salary plus benefits. It's at or near $40/hr. Other landscapers around town that do better work are paid well under $25/hr. all-in.

[VicHockeyFan]

VHF, you think? Why would you think that people wouldn't value their time, and schedule things for most efficiency? And, given that the bus is going anyway, what's the difference if there's 2 or so extra people on it at any given time?

It's "going anyway" because it is scheduled for frequency based on usage. If usage was down, there would be less buses "going anyway".

Why not extend your policy to inter-city travel, do you think that free travel between Nanaimo and Victoria, or Calgary and Vancouver would not increase demand, significantly?

[http]

Labour related to city workers mowing lawns, weed whacking, picking weeds, removing garbage, painting light standards and much of the other mundane work those $40/hour city workers do is pretty fungible. I'd bet you could find college students who were willing to do this type of work for less than half the cost and would produce similar results.

I understand my point of view is not widely shared (possibly even unpopular), but the actual numbers are no secret.

Schedule A of CUPE Local 50's collective agreement (starting p.69), lists the outside worker's rate for "Labourer - General" is $23.78. You don't see $40+ until you hit "Supervisor – Parks Operations" and "Supervisor - Underground Utilities Construction". Heck, you don't even get into $30/hr territory until you're looking at leadhands - roughly speaking, a foreman knowledgeable enough about any task to know what tools and crew are necessary to load in the trucks once s/he reads the day's work order.

So guess what? They DO pay folk about half that!

[VicHockeyFan]

For full-time workers, it's $23.78 plus benefits, including life insurance, medical, extended medical, and pension, paid vacation allowance higher than most. Generous overtime, much higher than mandated under provincial employee regulations.

Also consider that the employer has to make remittances, like EI and WorkSafe for the employees, and that comes from our taxes.

So $40/hr. is not far off for a little weed-whacking each day. You'd never pay your home lawn & garden guy $40/hr.

[North Shore]

Well perhaps, but I think that's a bit of apples/oranges. I can see more people wanting to travel to Calgary for free to see relatives, etc, because it's a long way, would otherwise cost a fair amount to get there, and because it's a rare trip. That's, in a nutshell, Westjet's business plan - lower fares to stimulate demand. I don't see people taking the bus downtown frivolously, because the trip is cheap and it's relatively easy to get there..

[VicHockeyFan]

Well perhaps, but I think that's a bit of apples/oranges. I can see more people wanting to travel to Calgary for free to see relatives, etc, because it's a long way, would otherwise cost a fair amount to get there, and because it's a rare trip. That's, in a nutshell, Westjet's business plan - lower fares to stimulate demand. I don't see people taking the bus downtown frivolously, because the trip is cheap and it's relatively easy to get there..

Oh, I do. I can bring it down micro right to where people will take the free down escalator instead of the adjacent stairs. Always seeking the easiest way out.

[jonny]

$40/hr for mowing lawns, etc? Really? Show the payscale, please. Nevermind, here it is:http://www.saanich.c...eA2007-2011.pdf Hmm, Accountants at $40/hr, lawn mowers, not so much... I suppose you could cut the lawnmowers down to $15/hr, but I suspect you'd lose out in intangibles like training costs, corporate memory, and pride in the job...

Starting wage at the City of Victoria is nearly $25/hour. I don't know what the pay grade is for a City of Victoria lawn care architect, but perhaps it is Parks Maintenance Worker at $24.76/hour or even a Senior Parks Maintenance Worker at $25.76/hour or maybe even the arborist who makes $32.04 an hour.

Factoring in health and benefits costs, which at my place of work are about 35% of pay, the cost of any City of Victoria employee is easily $35/hour. $40 is actually not that far off of a guess, now that I've looked into it. For the record, I don't know what health and benefits costs are at the City of Victoria, but I suspect they are at least as much as my employer as their pension is better.

For the record, the City of Victoria employees who cut the grass around my house clearly don't give two hoots about the quality of their work.

[pherthyl]

People that do not have a job (unemployed, those on social assistance, the disabled and retired, underage etc.) or others after work/school taking multiple trips per day, not consolidating their tasks for best efficiency.

I didn't respond to your first comment because I thought you must be kidding... Now I'm not so sure.

People don't take the bus for fun just because it's free. Yes maybe one dude will but in general people consolidate their trips so they don't have to waste half an hour going downtown twice for something they could have done in one trip. The cost of the bus trips is largely irrelevant.

Do you think everyone with a bus pass spends all day riding the bus for fun just because they can?

Free transit will increase ridership, but not because people are being wasteful. It will increase ridership and decrease use of other modes of transportation because now the bus would make sense. In many cases it is still cheaper (and more convenient) to drive than take the bus with the current costs.

[pherthyl]

Starting wage at the City of Victoria is nearly $25/hour. I don't know what the pay grade is for a City of Victoria lawn care architect, but perhaps it is Parks Maintenance Worker at $24.76/hour or even a Senior Parks Maintenance Worker at $25.76/hour or maybe even the arborist who makes $32.04 an hour.

Factoring in health and benefits costs, which at my place of work are about 35% of pay, the cost of any City of Victoria employee is easily $35/hour. $40 is actually not that far off of a guess, now that I've looked into it. For the record, I don't know what health and benefits costs are at the City of Victoria, but I suspect they are at least as much as my employer as their pension is better.

For the record, the City of Victoria employees who cut the grass around my house clearly don't give two hoots about the quality of their work.

I think the issue is less the salary than the efficiency (likely mandated by safety protocols). Half of the time I see 5 guys out there cleaning up some landscaping where it could be one. Gotta bring the big truck, gotta bring the cones to put out, gotta direct the traffic, etc.

[VicHockeyFan]

Do you think everyone with a bus pass spends all day riding the bus for fun just because they can?

No, those are exactly the people that don't overuse it, those that have paid for it.

See all the people walking to work every day up and down Douglas, up and down the Gorge, on the Goose etc.? They would all be in buses if it were free. Now go around UVic, all those kids have passes that they don't feel they really pay for, it's wrapped into their fees, even if they never use the bus. And you don't see all that many walking distances. There are 30,000 students up there at UVic and Camosun, few walking.

[pherthyl]

No, those are exactly the people that don't overuse it, those that have paid for it.

Bus passes give you unlimited use. They've paid for it but additional use costs nothing. And yet they don't waste their time on the bus if they don't have to.

See all the people walking to work every day up and down Douglas, up and down the Gorge, on the Goose etc.? They would all be in buses if it were free. Now go around UVic, all those kids have passes that they don't feel they really pay for, it's wrapped into their fees, even if they never use the bus. And you don't see all that many walking distances. There are 30,000 students up there at UVic and Camosun, few walking.

Some of them will take the bus. But I think it is unlikely that the people who are now deciding to get exercise by walking or cycling are doing so purely because they don't want to spend money on the bus.
On the other side, some of the people now driving will take the bus if it was free, therefore reducing congestion on the roads.
As for UVic students, here's the transportation modes:
http://www.uvic.ca/s...ummary 2012.pdf
27% on the busses doesn't seem excessive. They pay for it through their fees so they use it. What's the problem? Still 22% walk or ride bicycles. More surprising is that despite the bus pass being included, 40% still drive their cars.

[Mike K.]

I think the issue is less the salary than the efficiency (likely mandated by safety protocols). Half of the time I see 5 guys out there cleaning up some landscaping where it could be one. Gotta bring the big truck, gotta bring the cones to put out, gotta direct the traffic, etc.

...and gotta meet the year's budget, otherwise snip snip.

27% on the busses doesn't seem excessive. They pay for it through their fees so they use it. What's the problem? Still 22% walk or ride bicycles. More surprising is that despite the bus pass being included, 40% still drive their cars.

I used to drive and park up at UVic despite living very close to the #14 route, but frequent pass-ups due to under capacity, buses not showing up when scheduled and the general length of travel time quickly put an end to that. In the morning, during rush hour, I could get to UVic within 15-20 minutes. A bus ride alone took between 45 and 50 minutes and never mind the days when you were left high and dry as full buses passed on by (especially in the evenings, that was brutal).

[lanforod]

I work at UVic, and I don't see students hopping on buses to get across campus. I see many walking and biking to campus every day, and the parking lots are generally pretty full (this week especially).

My original comment on free transit - I did a little research and there are not many larger cities with complete free transit in place (I can think of limited free transit, such as the one line of the C-Train in Calgary right downtown that is free).

I think in Vancouver, perhaps a system of daily giving 2 free trips, including transfers, to every greater Vancouver resident on the new Compass card, financed by the same system as the rest of transit financing (whatever they come up with) would work better than just plain free transit - give transit police the ability to cut off the free trips, perhaps in a 3 strikes type system where the first strike cuts off for a month, then 6 months, etc. as punishment for fare-evading, loitering, vandalism etc.
After a period of time, the problem users will have to pay as usual, avoiding the problem of homeless camping out on busses/skytrain, the system abusers, and the potential for the types of trips VHF mentioned.
Would encourage the use of transit for commuting at the very least.
Tourists pay as usual.